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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:12 am
by Dinsdale
SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 am
My guess is MN 118 take the breath as the meditation object.
MN10 and DN22 take four frames of reference as the meditation object.
The way I see it you can take any of them as your meditation object to develop your concentration.
In that regards, I see there is no problem with any of the Suttas.
:anjali:
Yes, it's all mindfulness, but using different objects and different degrees of focus. You could say paying close attention to different aspects of experience.

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:01 am
by mikenz66
SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 am
Sorry, I don't understand this statement...
Neither do I!
I am just stabbing in the dark. :D
:rofl:
SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 am
My guess is MN 118 take the breath as the meditation object.
MN10 and DN22 take four frames of reference as the meditation object.
Don't those two suttas group a variety of meditation objects under four headings?
[Personally I don't find the "frames" translation particularly compelling. ]
SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 am
The way I see it you can take any of them as your meditation object to develop your concentration.
In that regards, I see there is no problem with any of the Suttas.
:anjali:
:heart:
Mike

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:46 am
by SarathW
Don't those two suttas group a variety of meditation objects under four headings?
Interesting.
Could you list them?
Personally I don't find the "frames" translation particularly compelling. ]
What is the Pali word for it?
How do you translate it?
:anjali:

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:00 am
by DooDoot
SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:47 am
MN118 about breathing.
Other two about Sati.
You are trying to compare cheese and chalk.
Isn't it?
Why don't you read the sutta.
When mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it fulfils the four foundations of mindfulness.

MN 118
Fulfilment of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness

“And how, bhikkhus, does mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfil the four foundations of mindfulness?

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu, breathing in long, understands: ‘I breathe in long,’ or breathing out long, understands: ‘I breathe out long’; breathing in short, understands: ‘I breathe in short,’ or breathing out short, understands: ‘I breathe out short’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body of breath’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body of breath’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation’—on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. I say that this is a certain body among the bodies, namely, in-breathing and out-breathing. That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing rapture’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing rapture’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing pleasure’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing pleasure’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the mental formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the mental formation’—on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating feelings as feelings, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. I say that this is a certain feeling among the feelings, namely, giving close attention to in-breathing and out-breathing. That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating feelings as feelings, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in gladdening the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out gladdening the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in concentrating the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out concentrating the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in liberating the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out liberating the mind’—on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind as mind, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. I do not say that there is the development of mindfulness of breathing for one who is forgetful, who is not fully aware. That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind as mind, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating fading away’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating fading away’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating cessation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating cessation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment’—on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. Having seen with wisdom the abandoning of covetousness and grief, he closely looks on with equanimity. That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

“Bhikkhus, that is how mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfils the four foundations of mindfulness.

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/bodhi

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:11 am
by mikenz66
SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:46 am
Don't those two suttas group a variety of meditation objects under four headings?
Interesting.
Could you list them?
I'm not sure I understand the question, since the whole sutta is a list of objects. See the headings in this translation, for example:
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .soma.html
SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:46 am
Personally I don't find the "frames" translation particularly compelling. ]
What is the Pali word for it?
How do you translate it?
:anjali:
Satipatthana

On Page 29 of Ven Analayo's book, Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... t-path.pdf there are some possible interpretations:
I.6 THE TERM SATIPATTHÃNA
The term satipatthana can be explained as a compound of sati, “mind-
fulness” or “awareness”, and upatthana, with the u of the latter term
dropped by vowel elision. The Pali term upatthana literally means
“placing near”, and in the present context refers to a particular way
of “being present” and “attending” to something with mindfulness. ...
...
The commentaries, however, derive satipaììhãna from the word
“foundation” or “cause” (patthana). This seems unlikely, since in
the discourses contained in the Pali canon the corresponding verb
paììhahati never occurs together with sati. ...
...
The Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana discusses these alternatives and gives some more references.

:heart:
Mike

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:09 pm
by SarathW
See the headings in this translation,
Thanks, Mike
I understand what you mean.
Satipattana Sutta is like a smorgasbord.
If you try to eat all at once you end up getting a tummy ache.

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:12 pm
by SarathW
Why don't you read the sutta.
Thanks, DD.
So there is no major difference between those three Sutta.
Am I correct?

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:35 pm
by mikenz66
SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:12 pm
Why don't you read the sutta.
Thanks, DD.
So there is no major difference between those three Sutta.
Am I correct?
Perhaps you could look at those suttas and summarise the similarities and differences for us?

:heart:
Mike

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:44 am
by DhammaLover
New to the conversation. What is the status of the Maha Satipatthana, which mirrors most of the Satipatthana, and is used widely in Burma and American meditation centers? Is it also a forgery? You have to deal with both of them to have a relevant discussion.

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:41 am
by Dhammanando
DhammaLover wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:44 am
New to the conversation. What is the status of the Maha Satipatthana, which mirrors most of the Satipatthana, and is used widely in Burma and American meditation centers?
Despite its slightly misleading title, this thread is actually about the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta. It's concerned with the thesis in Ven. Sujāto's book, History of Mindfulness, (linked to in the opening post) that in early Buddhism the objects of the fourth satipaṭṭhāna were just the hindrances and seven enlightenment factors. All of the other dhammānupassanā items given in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, along with the expanded account of the four noble truths in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta, are claimed to be later additions by ābhidhammikas.

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:44 am
by StormBorn
Jechbi wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:31 am
The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
Did the Buddha Teach Satipatthāna?

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:56 am
by Dinsdale
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:41 am
Despite its slightly misleading title, this thread is actually about the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta. It's concerned with the thesis in Ven. Sujāto's book, History of Mindfulness, (linked to in the opening post) that in early Buddhism the objects of the fourth satipaṭṭhāna were just the hindrances and seven enlightenment factors. All of the other dhammānupassanā items given in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, along with the expanded account of the four noble truths in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta, are claimed to be later additions by ābhidhammikas.
It wouldn't surprise me if other stuff was added later to the fourth frame. Noticing the hindrances and seven enlightenment factors seems like a good way of judging one's progress along the path, so perhaps that was the original intention of the fourth frame?

Aggregates and sense-bases look like ways of analyzing experience, as per the second factor of enlightenment. Like tools in the insight box.