The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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budo
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by budo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:48 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:26 am
LuisR wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:07 pm
The sutta held in the highest esteem is not authentic. I don't think I can seriously practice anymore.
Good idea indeed.

But for those who really want to practice Satipatthana or Mindfulness according to Early Buddhism, you may read and study the following suttas:

SN 47 Satipatthana Samyutta and SN 54 Anapana Samyutta; e.g. SN 47.2 and SN 54.1 (Cf. pp. 215-8, 225-7 in the Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism by Choong Mun-keat). :meditate:
:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:

Thank you

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budo
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by budo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:54 am

LuisR wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:23 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:26 am
LuisR wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:07 pm
The sutta held in the highest esteem is not authentic. I don't think I can seriously practice anymore.
Good idea indeed.

But for those who really want to practice Satipatthana or Mindfulness according to Early Buddhism, you may read and study the following suttas:

SN 47 Satipatthana Samyutta and SN 54 Anapana Samyutta; e.g. SN 47.2 and SN 54.1 (Cf. pp. 215-8, 225-7 in the Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism by Choong Mun-keat). :meditate:
Yeah, For those that really want to study the Satipatthana sudy these other suttas. Forget the hours, days, weeks you spent meditating on following the Satipatthana sutta. Forget the time and money you spent on studying satipatthana and listening to dhamma talks and the dhana you gave. For those that took time off work and spent time away from families to go practice. Go focus on these other ones now. :toilet:
I went on Mahasi Retreats, and even though it's based on Satipatthana it's not a waste because I learned how addicted I am to things and how dependent I am to things and how much I depend on people.

The thing is, is that I went on these retreats after I already attained the jhanas several times. Jhana was always my priority from day 1 in 2009 from reading my first meditation book: Mindfulness in Plain English by Henepola Gunaratana. So I naturally entered jhana on these Mahasi retreats as well.

Choose your teachers wisely, the Buddha always warns you that, he himself left many teachers, he himself rejected rituals, he himself entered jhanas, yet many teachers and movements today light candles, build statues, have flower ceremonies, other rituals and reject the jhanas.
Last edited by budo on Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:04 am, edited 4 times in total.

Dinsdale
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:54 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:26 am
SN 47 Satipatthana Samyutta...
Interesting that SN 47.33 stresses the importance of practising the four foundations of mindfulness:

“Monks, those in whom the four establishings of mindfulness are neglected, in them the noble eightfold1 path leading to the right ending of suffering & stress is neglected. Those in whom the four establishings of mindfulness are aroused, in them the noble eightfold path leading to the right ending of suffering & stress is aroused.
Which four? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves… mind in & of itself… mental qualities in & of themselves—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world."

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN47_33.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:56 am

LuisR wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:23 am
Forget the time and money you spent on studying satipatthana and listening to dhamma talks and the dhana you gave.
Didn't it come with a money-back guarantee? :shock: :jumping:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SarathW
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:12 am

I think the whole Sutta Pitaka is a forgery with a plan.
It saturates your brain to a point you will not believe in anything fabricated.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by James Tan » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:36 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:12 am
I think the whole Sutta Pitaka is a forgery with a plan.
It saturates your brain to a point you will not believe in anything fabricated.
Didn't you ask bhante sujato and get any answer what it means by body feeling mind and dhamma principle/mental qualities ?
:reading:

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:06 am

Didn't you ask bhante sujato
Have you seen the above thread in SC?

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ar ... 0/10202/49
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by James Tan » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:06 am
Didn't you ask bhante sujato
Have you seen the above thread in SC?

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ar ... 0/10202/49
MN118 is a later composition text .

Sujato didn't answer your question but someone else and is incorrect information given to you . Pity.
:reading:

SarathW
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:49 am

MN118 is a later composition text .
That may be the case but it is still in line with the Sutta.
Isn't it?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by James Tan » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:29 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:49 am
MN118 is a later composition text .
That may be the case but it is still in line with the Sutta.
Isn't it?
Nothing really
:reading:

SarathW
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:18 am

Nothing really
In your opinion which one is correct or most authentic, MN118,MN10 or DN22?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by James Tan » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:37 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:18 am
Nothing really
In your opinion which one is correct or most authentic, MN118,MN10 or DN22?
Ānāpānassati Sutta MN 118

Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta MN 10

Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta DN 22

MN118 According to the text it seems this is earlier than the other two . But , there are some flaws .

MN10 & DN22 both supposed to describe the four establishment training but included all other methods .
:reading:

SarathW
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:47 am

MN118 about breathing.
Other two about Sati.
You are trying to compare cheese and chalk.
Isn't it?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:04 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:47 am
MN118 about breathing.
Other two about Sati.
You are trying to compare cheese and chalk.
Isn't it?
Sorry, I don't understand this statement...

MN 118 Ānāpānassati Sutta. Mindfulness of Breathing
https://suttacentral.net/mn118

:heart:
Mike

SarathW
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 am

Sorry, I don't understand this statement...
Neither do I!
I am just stabbing in the dark. :D

My guess is MN 118 take the breath as the meditation object.
MN10 and DN22 take four frames of reference as the meditation object.
The way I see it you can take any of them as your meditation object to develop your concentration.
In that regards, I see there is no problem with any of the Suttas.
:anjali:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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