The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:18 pm

LuisR wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:06 pm
Jesus christ, just when I really start to tackle and study the Satipatthana sutta to meditate the best way possible I discover this thread. First there is the whole debate on who interprets the Sutta properly....... now it might be a forgery!!!???? I am so confused right now I don't know what to do anymore. :toilet:
I think "forgery" is a rather overblown characterisation. It appears to have been added to over the years. However, the things that have been added (such as mindfulness of breathing in the first section, noble truths in the fourth section), are, of course, present in many other suttas. So it's not as if something "wrong" has been sneaked into the canon.

However, see Bhikkhu Sujato's comments here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ar ... 10/10202/8 where he argues that one of the key purposes of satipatthana is as a prelude to jhana.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by budo » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:36 pm

I would say due to the nature of the way suttas are written and broken up, the satipathana sutta is not whole by itself. As the book by Kheminda Thera "Way of Buddhist meditation" explains Satipathana sutta happens AFTER jhana, it assumes one is already in a state or post-state of Samma Samadhi.

My belief is that satipathana is off cushion practice. My analogy is anapanasati/jhanas is lighting the fire, and satipathana is maintaining, walking with, and carrying the fire.

Because I believe it is off-cushion practice, it is then erroneous to use satipathana methods to light the fire (aka vipassana jhanas). Therefore satipathana doesn't prelude samma samadhi, nor does it serve as the main practice which is samma samadhi, but is the "postlude" of samma samadhi / jhanas.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:29 pm

budo wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:36 pm
I would say due to the nature of the way suttas are written and broken up, the satipathana sutta is not whole by itself. As the book by Kheminda Thera "Way of Buddhist meditation" explains Satipathana sutta happens AFTER jhana, it assumes one is already in a state or post-state of Samma Samadhi.
It's interesting how one can find different ways of interpreting the suttas by picking different ones. In the "gradual training" suttas such as: https://suttacentral.net/mn27/en/bodhi#sc26 and https://suttacentral.net/mn107/en/sujato#sc7, mindfulness precedes jhana, but I recall that there are other orderings, which I'm sure you can provide...

And, of course, insight (vipassana) and serenity (samatha) can be developed in different orders:
https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/sujato#sc31.1
https://suttacentral.net/an4.94/en/sujato#sc1
https://suttacentral.net/an4.170/en/sujato#sc3

Given this variety in the suttas, I would not be too quick to try to isolate the one true way of approaching the Path, or to claim that the approach of teacher X or Y is "wrong". Even from my rather limited experience, I've seen that different approaches seem to work better for different people, which is probably why there is such a variety of teachings and orderings in the suttas.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by budo » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:59 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:29 pm
budo wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:36 pm
I would say due to the nature of the way suttas are written and broken up, the satipathana sutta is not whole by itself. As the book by Kheminda Thera "Way of Buddhist meditation" explains Satipathana sutta happens AFTER jhana, it assumes one is already in a state or post-state of Samma Samadhi.
It's interesting how one can find different ways of interpreting the suttas by picking different ones. In the "gradual training" suttas such as: https://suttacentral.net/mn27/en/bodhi#sc26 and https://suttacentral.net/mn107/en/sujato#sc7, mindfulness precedes jhana, but I recall that there are other orderings, which I'm sure you can provide...

And, of course, insight (vipassana) and serenity (samatha) can be developed in different orders:
https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/sujato#sc31.1
https://suttacentral.net/an4.94/en/sujato#sc1
https://suttacentral.net/an4.170/en/sujato#sc3

Given this variety in the suttas, I would not be too quick to try to isolate the one true way of approaching the Path, or to claim that the approach of teacher X or Y is "wrong". Even from my rather limited experience, I've seen that different approaches seem to work better for different people, which is probably why there is such a variety of teachings and orderings in the suttas.

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Mike
We can solve this issue by process of elimination.

In AN10.095 Uttiya asks Ananda, how many people will become enlightened? Ananda tells him this question is irrelevant, the only thing that matters that everyone who becomes enlightened does so the same way, they must all first remove the five hinderances

"In the same way, it’s not the Realized One’s concern whether the whole world is released by this, or half, or a third. But the Realized One knows that whoever’s released from the world—in the past, future, or present—all have given up the five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. They have firmly established their mind in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. And they have truly developed the seven awakening factors. That’s how they’re released from the world, in the past, future, or present. Uttiya, you were just asking the Buddha the same question as before in a different way. That’s why he didn’t answer.”

or DN16

"For, Lord, all the Blessed Ones, Arahants, Fully Enlightened Ones of the past had abandoned the five hindrances, [14] the mental defilements that weaken wisdom; had well established their minds in the four foundations of mindfulness; [15] had duly cultivated the seven factors of enlightenment, and were fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment."

Notice that first one removes the 5 hindrances, THEN attains wisdom and THEN establishes in the 4 foundations of mindfulness..

By definition then, one needs to suppress the 5 hindrances first and develop the 5 jhana factors. Therefore insight vs serenity development can only happen after the 5 hindrances have been suppressed and the 5 jhana factors developed.

You cannot attain insight if your perception is distorted by the 5 hinderances.

"Having abandoned these five hindrances — imperfections of awareness that weaken discernment— then, quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful." -MN 101


So first jhana is the minimum requirement for attaining insight, once that basic level is reached, then comes insight vs serenity suttas you referenced, which means either one develops insight first or jhanas 2-8, or both at the same time. So first jhana is the starting point, until first jhana happens there is nothing.

Evidence for this is this is when the buddha says that one who has developed the 5 jhana factors is fully accomplished in the dhamma. Therefore insight cannot even happen before first jhana.

Furthermore anupada sutta shows that the quality of "sampajanna" (clearly knowing/seeing of impermanence) arises in 3rd jhana.


Therefore one cannot even practice Satipatthana if they haven't abandoned the five hindrances and developed the 5 factors.

Let me ask you this:

What good is telling yourself "I am turning, I am moving, I am eating, I am sitting, I am walking, etc.." if your perception is distorted, it won't mean anything, you can tell that to yourself all the time and it won't change anything. When someone is on the drug LSD they love looking at their own hands and other simple ordinary day to day things because their perception has totally changed so they are attaining new insight. Just the same when you have the new perception without the 5 hinderances.

What good is analyzing your body parts, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?

What good is looking at dead bodies in charnal ground, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?

What good is looking at your ordinary day to day feelings, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?

What good is contemplating the 5 aggregates, impermanence, and dependent origination, if your thinking is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?

You are not going to attain direct knowledge with your old distorted and ordinary perception, the perception must change first:

"Now, lord, does perception arise first, and knowledge after; or does knowledge arise first, and perception after; or do perception & knowledge arise simultaneously?"

"Potthapada, perception arises first, and knowledge after. And the arising of knowledge comes from the arising of perception. One discerns, 'It's in dependence on this [7] that my knowledge has arisen.' Through this line of reasoning one can realize how perception arises first, and knowledge after, and how the arising of knowledge comes from the arising of perception." -DN9

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:52 pm

Hi Budo,

Thanks for the detailed analysis. I'm impressed by your obviously sincere practice, and I'm certainly not criticising it. I am just skeptical of any "one true way" assertions, since I've heard so many different versions of that "one true way" over the years, all supported by copious sutta quotes...

Best Wishes

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Polar Bear » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:24 pm

budo wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:59 pm


Let me ask you this:

What good is telling yourself "I am turning, I am moving, I am eating, I am sitting, I am walking, etc.." if your perception is distorted, it won't mean anything, you can tell that to yourself all the time and it won't change anything. When someone is on the drug LSD they love looking at their own hands and other simple ordinary day to day things because their perception has totally changed so they are attaining new insight. Just the same when you have the new perception without the 5 hinderances.
Mindfulness and Sampajanna of postures and activities comes before removal of the hindrances in the gradual training:
They act with situational awareness when going out and coming back; when looking ahead and aside; when bending and extending the limbs; when bearing the outer robe, bowl and robes; when eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting; when urinating and defecating; when walking, standing, sitting, sleeping, waking, speaking, and keeping silent.
When they have this noble spectrum of ethics, this noble contentment, this noble sense restraint, and this noble mindfulness and situational awareness, they frequent a secluded lodging—a wilderness, the root of a tree, a hill, a ravine, a mountain cave, a charnel ground, a forest, the open air, a heap of straw. After the meal, they return from alms-round, sit down cross-legged with their body straight, and establish mindfulness right there. Giving up desire for the world, they meditate with a heart rid of desire, cleansing the mind of desire. Giving up ill will and malevolence, they meditate with a mind rid of ill will, full of compassion for all living beings, cleansing the mind of ill will. Giving up dullness and drowsiness, they meditate with a mind rid of dullness and drowsiness, perceiving light, mindful and aware, cleansing the mind of dullness and drowsiness. Giving up restlessness and remorse, they meditate without restlessness, their mind peaceful inside, cleansing the mind of restlessness and remorse. Giving up doubt, they meditate having gone beyond doubt, not undecided about skillful qualities, cleansing the mind of doubt.

https://suttacentral.net/mn27/en/sujato
...
What good is analyzing your body parts, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?

What good is looking at dead bodies in charnal ground, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?
There is no other thing better for removing the hindrance of sensual desire than attention to the non-beauty and dirtiness of the body:
And what starves the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, starves its increase and growth? There is the aspect of ugliness. Frequent proper attention to that starves the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, starves its increase and growth.

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.51/en/sujato
...
What good is looking at your ordinary day to day feelings, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?
One good way to look at ordinary day to day feelings even when under the influence of the hindrances is to notice how craving arises dependent on feeling.

What good is contemplating the 5 aggregates, impermanence, and dependent origination, if your thinking is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?
Well, you need the perspective of impermanence and conditionality to work with the hindrances:
And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles? It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five hindrances. And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five hindrances?
It’s when a mendicant who has sensual desire in them understands: ‘I have sensual desire in me.’ When they don’t have sensual desire in them, they understand: ‘I don’t have sensual desire in me.’ They understand how sensual desire arises; how, when it’s already arisen, it’s given up; and how, once it’s given up, it doesn’t arise again in the future.

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato
So I think it should be clear that there is Satipatthana before the removal of the hindrances, and this form of Satipatthana is for the purpose of removing those hindrances, and then there is Satipatthana done after the removal of the hindrances, which has to do with entering deep samadhi, perfecting the awakening factors, and gaining liberating insight.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by budo » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:50 pm

Polar Bear wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:24 pm
budo wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:59 pm


Let me ask you this:

What good is telling yourself "I am turning, I am moving, I am eating, I am sitting, I am walking, etc.." if your perception is distorted, it won't mean anything, you can tell that to yourself all the time and it won't change anything. When someone is on the drug LSD they love looking at their own hands and other simple ordinary day to day things because their perception has totally changed so they are attaining new insight. Just the same when you have the new perception without the 5 hinderances.
Mindfulness and Sampajanna of postures and activities comes before removal of the hindrances in the gradual training:
They act with situational awareness when going out and coming back; when looking ahead and aside; when bending and extending the limbs; when bearing the outer robe, bowl and robes; when eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting; when urinating and defecating; when walking, standing, sitting, sleeping, waking, speaking, and keeping silent.
When they have this noble spectrum of ethics, this noble contentment, this noble sense restraint, and this noble mindfulness and situational awareness, they frequent a secluded lodging—a wilderness, the root of a tree, a hill, a ravine, a mountain cave, a charnel ground, a forest, the open air, a heap of straw. After the meal, they return from alms-round, sit down cross-legged with their body straight, and establish mindfulness right there. Giving up desire for the world, they meditate with a heart rid of desire, cleansing the mind of desire. Giving up ill will and malevolence, they meditate with a mind rid of ill will, full of compassion for all living beings, cleansing the mind of ill will. Giving up dullness and drowsiness, they meditate with a mind rid of dullness and drowsiness, perceiving light, mindful and aware, cleansing the mind of dullness and drowsiness. Giving up restlessness and remorse, they meditate without restlessness, their mind peaceful inside, cleansing the mind of restlessness and remorse. Giving up doubt, they meditate having gone beyond doubt, not undecided about skillful qualities, cleansing the mind of doubt.

https://suttacentral.net/mn27/en/sujato
...
What good is analyzing your body parts, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?

What good is looking at dead bodies in charnal ground, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?
There is no other thing better for removing the hindrance of sensual desire than attention to the non-beauty and dirtiness of the body:
And what starves the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, starves its increase and growth? There is the aspect of ugliness. Frequent proper attention to that starves the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, starves its increase and growth.

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.51/en/sujato
...
What good is looking at your ordinary day to day feelings, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?
One good way to look at ordinary day to day feelings even when under the influence of the hindrances is to notice how craving arises dependent on feeling.

What good is contemplating the 5 aggregates, impermanence, and dependent origination, if your thinking is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?
Well, you need the perspective of impermanence and conditionality to work with the hindrances:
And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles? It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five hindrances. And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five hindrances?
It’s when a mendicant who has sensual desire in them understands: ‘I have sensual desire in me.’ When they don’t have sensual desire in them, they understand: ‘I don’t have sensual desire in me.’ They understand how sensual desire arises; how, when it’s already arisen, it’s given up; and how, once it’s given up, it doesn’t arise again in the future.

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato
So I think it should be clear that there is Satipatthana before the removal of the hindrances, and this form of Satipatthana is for the purpose of removing those hindrances, and then there is Satipatthana done after the removal of the hindrances, which has to do with entering deep samadhi, perfecting the awakening factors, and gaining liberating insight.

:anjali:
I don't know about you, but the average person doesn't feel sukha and piti at the sight of rotting corpses. Yes, rotting corpses may remove the hindrance of desire (except maybe for necrophiliacs?), but they definitely arise the hinderance of aversion, fear/restlessness, etc.. In fact a bunch of monks committed suicide (SN 54.9) because of that, so the Buddha said to do anapanasati instead.

However, once someone enters jhana and the hindrances abandoned, then they can look at rotting corpses and see that their state of mind is unshakeable and therefore the problem is not the rotting corpse, but the perception one has habituated their whole life.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:18 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:24 pm
So I think it should be clear that there is Satipatthana before the removal of the hindrances...
So the following is done with hindrances; with a mind of sensual desire, anger, sloth, drowsiness, restlessness, remorse, doubt & fear? :?
A. Body

"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?

"There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns, 'I am making a long turn,' or when making a short turn discerns, 'I am making a short turn'; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long' ... He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

:roll:
:alien:
Polar Bear wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:24 pm
There is no other thing better for removing the hindrance of sensual desire than attention to the non-beauty and dirtiness of the body:
The above is not necessary at all.
Polar Bear wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:24 pm
Well, you need the perspective of impermanence and conditionality to work with the hindrances
Only for the hindrance of fear & dread (bhayabherava). All other hindrance only need basic morality (harmlessness) to overcome.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Polar Bear » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:58 am

Both of you guys are neglecting the obvious. Just read the suttas.

Doodoot, read:
And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles? It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five hindrances. And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five hindrances?
It’s when a mendicant who has sensual desire in them understands: ‘I have sensual desire in me.’ When they don’t have sensual desire in them, they understand: ‘I don’t have sensual desire in me.’ They understand how sensual desire arises; how, when it’s already arisen, it’s given up; and how, once it’s given up, it doesn’t arise again in the future.

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato
Being aware that you are under the influence of the hindrances when you are is a part of Satipatthana.

Budo, the suicide incident was one incident. The suttas where the Buddha recommends asubha for overcoming sensual desire are way more numerous. Note that the sutta is talking about dealing with the hindrances, I.e. pre-jhana:
“Mendicants, I will teach you what fuels and what starves the five hindrances and the seven awakening factors. Listen … And what fuels the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow? There is the aspect of beauty. Frequent improper attention to that fuels the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow...

And what starves the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, starves its increase and growth? There is the aspect of ugliness. Frequent proper attention to that starves the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, starves its increase and growth.

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.51/en/sujato
“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that prevents sensual desire from arising, or, when it has arisen, abandons it like the aspect of ugliness. When you attend properly on the aspect of ugliness, sensual desire does not arise, or, if it’s already arisen, it’s given up.”

https://suttacentral.net/an1.11-20/en/sujato
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:26 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:58 am
Doodoot, read:
Thanks P.B. I've read it. This is my ground or evidence to make a case it is a forgery. It seems illogical a meditator calms breathing in 1st satipatthana; experiences & calms rapture in 2nd satipatthana; cleanses & liberates the mind from any (non-thought) underlying defilements in 3rd satipatthana; to then experience the five hindrances in the 4th satipatthana. MN 118 appears to be the logical genuine descriptions of Satipatthana.
Polar Bear wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:58 am
The suttas where the Buddha recommends asubha for overcoming sensual desire are way more numerous.
Asubha appears for minds not yet sufficiently established in wisdom based morality. In SN 35.127, metta/morality is the 1st method and asubha appears to be a 2nd method for those with insufficient wisdom based morality & metta:
"It has been said, sire, by the Blessed One who knows and sees, the Arahant, the Fully Self-enlightened One: 'Come, monks, whatever woman is a mother, think of her just as a mother; whatever woman is a sister, think of her just as a sister; whatever woman is a daughter, think of her just as a daughter. That is how these young monks... can practice the holy life... to the end of their days.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
:candle:
Polar Bear wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:58 am
Both of you guys are neglecting the obvious. Just read the suttas.
DooDoot wrote:
budo wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:46 am
Furthermore I think it's important for people to understand (scientific sources below):

- Pair bonding is the mechanism that maintains monogamy
- Pair bonding is dependent on the hormone oxytocin
- The more sexual partners a woman has had in her lifetime the less oxytocin she is able to produce, the less she is able to pair bond, the less able she is to stay in a monogamous relationship
- The less a woman is able to pair bond with men, the less she is able to pair bond with her child in its infancy
- If an infant cannot pair bond with its mother, the infant will fail to be imprinted and learn emotional intelligence, empathy, and self-awareness.. Leading to autism, psychopathy, and a host of mental diseases.

Therefore the sexual liberation movement is not only destroying marriages, but also women and children. This is why virginity was guarded in the past by religions and royal families, even going as far as implementing chastity belts.
Whooa! Dhamma overload! :lol: Politically incorrect in Western Buddhism. Sorry, back to topic. Yes, the above considerations influence compassion towards women. Again, if we are an evolving Western man discerning this sexual dukkha, we learn to say "No" to unbeneficial sexual liaisons. This is compassion towards women; to relate to women with "metta" as "friends".

Claims of superiority deleted - Mikenz66

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by LuisR » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:07 pm

The sutta held in the highest esteem is not authentic. I don't think I can seriously practice anymore.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:26 am

LuisR wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:07 pm
The sutta held in the highest esteem is not authentic. I don't think I can seriously practice anymore.
Good idea indeed.

But for those who really want to practice Satipatthana or Mindfulness according to Early Buddhism, you may read and study the following suttas:

SN 47 Satipatthana Samyutta and SN 54 Anapana Samyutta; e.g. SN 47.2 and SN 54.1 (Cf. pp. 215-8, 225-7 in the Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism by Choong Mun-keat). :meditate:

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by LuisR » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:58 am

Why is that a good idea?

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by LuisR » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:23 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:26 am
LuisR wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:07 pm
The sutta held in the highest esteem is not authentic. I don't think I can seriously practice anymore.
Good idea indeed.

But for those who really want to practice Satipatthana or Mindfulness according to Early Buddhism, you may read and study the following suttas:

SN 47 Satipatthana Samyutta and SN 54 Anapana Samyutta; e.g. SN 47.2 and SN 54.1 (Cf. pp. 215-8, 225-7 in the Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism by Choong Mun-keat). :meditate:
Yeah, For those that really want to study the Satipatthana sudy these other suttas. Forget the hours, days, weeks you spent meditating on following the Satipatthana sutta. Forget the time and money you spent on studying satipatthana and listening to dhamma talks and the dhana you gave. For those that took time off work and spent time away from families to go practice. Go focus on these other ones now. :toilet:

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:10 am

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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