The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
Spiny Norman
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 am My guess is MN 118 take the breath as the meditation object.
MN10 and DN22 take four frames of reference as the meditation object.
The way I see it you can take any of them as your meditation object to develop your concentration.
In that regards, I see there is no problem with any of the Suttas.
:anjali:
Yes, it's all mindfulness, but using different objects and different degrees of focus. You could say paying close attention to different aspects of experience.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 am
Sorry, I don't understand this statement...
Neither do I!
I am just stabbing in the dark. :D
:rofl:
SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 am My guess is MN 118 take the breath as the meditation object.
MN10 and DN22 take four frames of reference as the meditation object.
Don't those two suttas group a variety of meditation objects under four headings?
[Personally I don't find the "frames" translation particularly compelling. ]
SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 am The way I see it you can take any of them as your meditation object to develop your concentration.
In that regards, I see there is no problem with any of the Suttas.
:anjali:
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW »

Don't those two suttas group a variety of meditation objects under four headings?
Interesting.
Could you list them?
Personally I don't find the "frames" translation particularly compelling. ]
What is the Pali word for it?
How do you translate it?
:anjali:
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DooDoot
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:47 am MN118 about breathing.
Other two about Sati.
You are trying to compare cheese and chalk.
Isn't it?
Why don't you read the sutta.
When mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it fulfils the four foundations of mindfulness.

MN 118
Fulfilment of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness

“And how, bhikkhus, does mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfil the four foundations of mindfulness?

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu, breathing in long, understands: ‘I breathe in long,’ or breathing out long, understands: ‘I breathe out long’; breathing in short, understands: ‘I breathe in short,’ or breathing out short, understands: ‘I breathe out short’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body of breath’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body of breath’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation’—on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. I say that this is a certain body among the bodies, namely, in-breathing and out-breathing. That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing rapture’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing rapture’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing pleasure’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing pleasure’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the mental formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the mental formation’—on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating feelings as feelings, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. I say that this is a certain feeling among the feelings, namely, giving close attention to in-breathing and out-breathing. That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating feelings as feelings, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in gladdening the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out gladdening the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in concentrating the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out concentrating the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in liberating the mind’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out liberating the mind’—on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind as mind, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. I do not say that there is the development of mindfulness of breathing for one who is forgetful, who is not fully aware. That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind as mind, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating fading away’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating fading away’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating cessation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating cessation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment’—on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. Having seen with wisdom the abandoning of covetousness and grief, he closely looks on with equanimity. That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

“Bhikkhus, that is how mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfils the four foundations of mindfulness.

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/bodhi
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mikenz66
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:46 am
Don't those two suttas group a variety of meditation objects under four headings?
Interesting.
Could you list them?
I'm not sure I understand the question, since the whole sutta is a list of objects. See the headings in this translation, for example:
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .soma.html
SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:46 am
Personally I don't find the "frames" translation particularly compelling. ]
What is the Pali word for it?
How do you translate it?
:anjali:
Satipatthana

On Page 29 of Ven Analayo's book, Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... t-path.pdf there are some possible interpretations:
I.6 THE TERM SATIPATTHÃNA
The term satipatthana can be explained as a compound of sati, “mind-
fulness” or “awareness”, and upatthana, with the u of the latter term
dropped by vowel elision. The Pali term upatthana literally means
“placing near”, and in the present context refers to a particular way
of “being present” and “attending” to something with mindfulness. ...
...
The commentaries, however, derive satipaììhãna from the word
“foundation” or “cause” (patthana). This seems unlikely, since in
the discourses contained in the Pali canon the corresponding verb
paììhahati never occurs together with sati. ...
...
The Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana discusses these alternatives and gives some more references.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW »

See the headings in this translation,
Thanks, Mike
I understand what you mean.
Satipattana Sutta is like a smorgasbord.
If you try to eat all at once you end up getting a tummy ache.
Last edited by SarathW on Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW »

Why don't you read the sutta.
Thanks, DD.
So there is no major difference between those three Sutta.
Am I correct?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:12 pm
Why don't you read the sutta.
Thanks, DD.
So there is no major difference between those three Sutta.
Am I correct?
Perhaps you could look at those suttas and summarise the similarities and differences for us?

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by DhammaLover »

New to the conversation. What is the status of the Maha Satipatthana, which mirrors most of the Satipatthana, and is used widely in Burma and American meditation centers? Is it also a forgery? You have to deal with both of them to have a relevant discussion.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Dhammanando »

DhammaLover wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:44 am New to the conversation. What is the status of the Maha Satipatthana, which mirrors most of the Satipatthana, and is used widely in Burma and American meditation centers?
Despite its slightly misleading title, this thread is actually about the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta. It's concerned with the thesis in Ven. Sujāto's book, History of Mindfulness, (linked to in the opening post) that in early Buddhism the objects of the fourth satipaṭṭhāna were just the hindrances and seven enlightenment factors. All of the other dhammānupassanā items given in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, along with the expanded account of the four noble truths in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta, are claimed to be later additions by ābhidhammikas.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by StormBorn »

Jechbi wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:31 am The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?
Did the Buddha Teach Satipatthāna?
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:41 am Despite its slightly misleading title, this thread is actually about the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta. It's concerned with the thesis in Ven. Sujāto's book, History of Mindfulness, (linked to in the opening post) that in early Buddhism the objects of the fourth satipaṭṭhāna were just the hindrances and seven enlightenment factors. All of the other dhammānupassanā items given in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, along with the expanded account of the four noble truths in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta, are claimed to be later additions by ābhidhammikas.
It wouldn't surprise me if other stuff was added later to the fourth frame. Noticing the hindrances and seven enlightenment factors seems like a good way of judging one's progress along the path, so perhaps that was the original intention of the fourth frame?

Aggregates and sense-bases look like ways of analyzing experience, as per the second factor of enlightenment. Like tools in the insight box.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by DooDoot »

Returning to this topic, I am not sure what i will post below was mentioned before, but the Satipatthana Sutta says:
And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of the mind?

It’s when a mendicant knows mind with greed as ‘mind with greed,’ and mind without greed as ‘mind without greed.’ They know mind with hate as ‘mind with hate,’ and mind without hate as ‘mind without hate.’ They know mind with delusion as ‘mind with delusion,’ and mind without delusion as ‘mind without delusion.’ They know constricted mind as ‘constricted mind,’ and scattered mind as ‘scattered mind.’ They know expansive mind as ‘expansive mind,’ and unexpansive mind as ‘unexpansive mind.’ They know mind that is not supreme as ‘mind that is not supreme,’ and mind that is supreme as ‘mind that is supreme.’ They know mind immersed in samādhi as ‘mind immersed in samādhi,’ and mind not immersed in samādhi as ‘mind not immersed in samādhi.’ They know freed mind as ‘freed mind,’ and unfreed mind as ‘unfreed mind.’


https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato
My impression is the above words are only found in many other suttas in regard to knowing the mind of others rather than one's own mind. Some of these suttas include MN 12, MN 119, SN 16.9, SN 51.11, SN 52.14, AN 3.101, AN 5.23, AN 6.2, AN 6.70, etc.
He encompasses with his own mind the minds of other beings, other persons. He understands a mind affected by lust as affected by lust and a mind unaffected by lust as unaffected by lust; he understands a mind affected by hate as affected by hate and a mind unaffected by hate as unaffected by hate; he understands a mind affected by delusion as affected by delusion and a mind unaffected by delusion as unaffected by delusion; he understands a contracted mind as contracted and a distracted mind as distracted; he understands an exalted mind as exalted and an unexalted mind as unexalted; he understands a surpassed mind as surpassed and an unsurpassed mind as unsurpassed; he understands a concentrated mind as concentrated and an unconcentrated mind as unconcentrated; he understands a liberated mind as liberated and an unliberated mind as unliberated.'
The replicating a verse (about knowing the external minds of others using psychic powers) to a verse in the Satipatthana Sutta about knowing one's own internal mind might support the argument the Satipatthana Sutta a forgery.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by sentinel »


this thread is actually about the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta. It's concerned with the thesis in Ven. Sujāto's book, History of Mindfulness, (linked to in the opening post) that in early Buddhism the objects of the fourth satipaṭṭhāna were just the hindrances and seven enlightenment factors. All of the other dhammānupassanā items given in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, along with the expanded account of the four noble truths in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta, are claimed to be later additions by ābhidhammikas.
I agree Sujato thesis was right on one thing , that it was a Reproduction text . However , he was wrong to list hindrances and 7foe as the fourth objects .
IMO , not only Dn22 was not genuine , Mn10 & 118 also problematic .
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by DooDoot »

sentinel wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 2:45 pm 118 also problematic .
MN 118 is not problematic. It is true Dhamma.

Please list what you think are problems in MN 118 and I will reply to each problem you believe exists.
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