The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Virgo
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Virgo » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:38 pm

Friends:

The following is a good discussion which I highly recommend. Please enjoy it.

http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4

Sincerely,

Kevin

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daverupa
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by daverupa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:12 pm

It's odd to take paramatha sacca as a given when comparing the suttas and the abhidhamma, as that discussion seems to do. I find the abhidhamma's premise that the suttas are in conventional language while it itself is in ultimate language to be woefully unsupported.

I see these abhidhammas as being records of the sorts of discussions Buddhist virtuosos were having amongst themselves as time went on. They respond to context, and in this differ little from any book on the Dhamma which is trying to explain it for a particular audience in a different space-time matrix than the specifically 'Nikayan' worldview.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Kumara
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa on Abhidhamma

Post by Kumara » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:38 am

flaneur9 wrote:2. The word “abhidhamma” is very seldom found in the Vinaya and Suttanta (according to one authority eleven times), and when it is found it is usually paired with the term “abhivinaya.” Since there is and never was an Abhivinaya Piṭaka the context implies that “abhidhamma” here means simply “about Dhamma,” not “higher Dhamma.” In the very few cases where the term clearly refers to the philosophy of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka it is found in relatively very late canonical exegesis of older texts—for example, the Vinaya Suttavibhaṅga and the Mahāniddesa.
Well said. But don't bother trying to convince the abhidhammikas!

Here's what I think: Vinaya simply means discipline. By "abhivinaya", I believe that the Buddha was referring to a higher form of discipline, which is not about mere confirming to rules, but a higher inner discipline. So, parallel to that, "abhidhamma" should mean a higher form of dhamma, but we need not let orthodox thinking influence us to confine our understanding to some sort of mere technical-philosophy. I see it as higher practicable, realisable dhamma.

I sometimes find it funny that while Abhidhammatthasangaha enthusiasts think that they are studying ultimate reality, it is obvious that they are getting themselves involved with more concepts.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:32 am

Dear Dhamma friends,

Regarding the notion/concept of Paramattha shown in Abhidhammattha Sangaha 'Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma', p. 25, I consider that it is very likely that the teachings of Paramattha (and its connection with Pa~n~natti 'Concept') are 'not' supported by the suttas, particularly the SN suttas (cf. Choong MK, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 54, 92, 138 (on 'pa~n~naapeti'), 154).
E.g. the five aggregates (according to the SN suttas) should be seen as they really are as 'void (without reality, rittaka), insubstantial (tucchaka), and lacking essence (asaaraka)' (SN 22.95: PTS, iii, 140-143), because they are phenomena (dhammas) arisen by causal condition ('not' by their own right as 'irreducible' realities/components of existence), having the nature (dhamma) of anicca 'impermanence', nirodha 'cessation' (SN 12.20: PTS ii, 25-27).

Regards,

Thomas

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Alex123
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa on Abhidhamma

Post by Alex123 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:42 am

Kumara wrote:By "abhivinaya", I believe that .
Just like Abhivinaya does not mean abhivinaya pitaka, same with abhidhamma.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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lionking
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by lionking » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:44 am

Well, the Buddha insisted on keeping things simple. He said he will only divulge the things essential for enlightenment.

The Dhamma in many ways runs counter to normal human intuition. For example, it says give up creature comforts in order to be free from suffering.

Many struggle to understand the reasoning behind such thinking even now. It does not help confusing more with complexity those who are already confused.

The Pali Tripitaka represents the bare essentials to be on the path. Although over his lifetime many of the wiser monks would have learnt and perhaps inferred the mechanics just by listening to Buddha. Perhaps a select few were taught the higher principles by the Buddha himself.

The first council did not even acknowledge Abhidhamma following Buddha’s policy on keeping it simple. Although by the 3rd council some felt it would be worthy of preservation for future generations.

An example is the 6th sense base – “Thinking”. The Abhidhamma explains the mechanics of "Thinking". It reveals thinking emerges from the heart.

Prevailing mainstream science does not acknowledge thinking as a sensory activity. It considers thinking to be a cognitive function isolated to the brain.

This has been challenged, however. It appears the heart is not only a sensory organ it has a cognitive function.
Recent work in the relatively new field of neurocardiology has firmly established that the heart is a sensory organ and an information encoding and processing center, with an extensive intrinsic nervous system that’s sufficiently sophisticated to qualify as a heart brain. Its circuitry enables it to learn, remember, and make functional decisions independent of the cranial brain. To everyone’s surprise, the findings have demonstrated that the heart’s intrinsic nervous system is a complex, self-organized system; its neuroplasticity, or ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections over both the short and long term, has been well demonstrated.
http://noeticsi.com/thinking-from-the-h ... n-science/
So the Pali Tripitaka is akin to a driving manual. The Abhidhamma is the manual on combustion engine and its principles. All you need for the journey is the driving manual. Although if curiosity arises one may take a peek at the mechanics with the Abhidhamma too.
grr ..

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cjmacie
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by cjmacie » Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:14 am

postby lionking » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:44 pm

"Well, the Buddha insisted on keeping things simple. He said he will only divulge the things essential for enlightenment."
As the Buddha saw fit, out of expediency, to concentrate for teaching purposes on a "handful of leaves" compared to all the rest of the forest compost, the vast details of his experience and knowledge, my view is that Abhidhammikers were attempting to "reverse engineer" the distilled teachings towards getting a sense of the whole forest of leaves – at least mapping-out that territory. (Some see the abhidhamma as claiming to be exhaustive, hence hopelessly complex; other modern commentators, e.g. Rupert Gethin, hold that it was understood as illustrative, as demonstration of methodology.)

"So the Pali Tripitaka is akin to a driving manual. The Abhidhamma is the manual on combustion engine and its principles. All you need for the journey is the driving manual. Although if curiosity arises one may take a peek at the mechanics with the Abhidhamma too."
A corrolary viewpoint might be that driving, say, a Formula 1 machine involves a more refined awareness of and sensitivity to the technicalities.

Though the commentaries and sub-commentaries do seem to often spin off in rather dubious directions, obscure corners of esoterica, my sense is the basic abhidhamma texts can be useful supports to bhavana-practice, especially for the more intellectually inclined. That it's all seems extraneously heady, impractical to some doesn't mean that it can't be an aid to refining insight for others.

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lionking
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by lionking » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:10 am

cjmacie wrote:That it's all seems extraneously heady, impractical to some doesn't mean that it can't be an aid to refining insight for others.
Most certainly. In the case of Abhidhamma it easier to learn it from someone who has already read and understood the material.

Ven Bikkhu Bodhi (101 Abhidhamma) - 1 of 15 in the series of video (The Accompanying Book (Free Download))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSL1N5caXZM

Ven Bikkhu Bodhi (202 Abhidhamma) - 1 of 26 in the series of video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFuVmcXTikw

Ven Thiththagalle Anandasiri. The young monk here explains it quite well in Sinhala. This video is 1/40 in the series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt9O4eZEUtQ
grr ..

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by theY » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:37 am

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 99#p434599
Zom wrote:
45 years of buddha time was enough for buddha to taught abhidhamma to sāriputta
However, the truth is, he didn't teach it. That is, if we take unbiased (scientific) approach to texts. But if we blindly follow tradition, yes, we will have to think that he taught it. Just like mahayanists who are sure that Nagarjuna brought mahayana sutras from Naga Realm - because this is said in their sacred texts.

Commentary already said "buddha taught a summary of abhidhamma to sāriputta, then sāriputta taught and described that abhidhamma to his students" (Abh.Saṅ.Com. Intro). But the western professors never focus on it. It is your professor's mistake for through 200 years ago. The commentary clearly wrote the history from 0 buddhist era, but your professors biased and distort it like commentary never said this history to discredit abhidhamma and commentary through 200 years ago.

Another, especially, more than 40 years, that sāriputta lived in buddha age and taught abhidhamma to his students (mahāgosiṅgasāla-sutta), include the memorizers in 1st saṅgāyanā such as ānanda, upāli, kassapa, and anuruddha, this period was very enough to prove that buddha and saṅgha very agree with abhidhamma of sāriputta. Also, buddha announced by himself that sāriputta was the best teacher who can taught 4 noble truths like him (A.N. Ekapuggalavagga).
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Zom » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:48 pm

Another, especially, more than 40 years, that sāriputta lived in buddha age and taught abhidhamma to his students (mahāgosiṅgasāla-sutta), include the memorizers in 1st saṅgāyanā such as ānanda, upāli, kassapa, and anuruddh
Oh, by the way, do you know that Abhidhamma is never mentioned in theravadin canonical texts about 1st Council and even 2nd one, which happened roughly 100 years after Buddha's demise? The answer is simple and obvious: nothing is said about it in there because there was no such thing as Abhidhamma 8-) All 5 nikayas are mentioned, even particular suttas. Vinaya is mentioned. But that's it, no even a tiny hint about so called "3rd pitaka". And this very word "ti-pitaka" appeard only after 3rd council.

The massive inclusion of Abhidhamma books into Buddhist Canons was so bold move, that even whole protesting school appeared - Sautrāntika. These monks just plainly denied Abhidhamma - not because they didn't understand it or didn't like it - but because this was not said by the Buddha. There were no schools which denied Suttanta, no schools which denied Vinaya. But yes, there were ancient monks who denied Abhidhamma, and this is understandable.

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Sovatthika
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Sovatthika » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:33 am

sharing some thoughts from a friend: "I think the structure and philosophical/metaphysical assumptions or maybe just the entirety of the metaphysics in the abhidhamma is at conflict with the suttas
Especially

sabhāva in abhidhamma
sabhāva=self-being, own-being
& the paramatthadhammā
4 paramatthadhammā nibbāna, form/rūpa, mind/citta, mental factors/cetasika
In abhidhamma
Paramatthadhammā is ultimate realities
Suttas to me seem to say only nibbāna is paramatthadhamma
Sabhāva
Wait first
Also those four don't appear together in suttas cetasika & citta aren't used like this in suttas

This is big thing in abhidhamma it has its own set of terms & their groupings
But yeah so sabhāva
Abhidhamma asserts that elementary, momentary (& they give a specific amount of time for a moment) phenomena have sabhāva real true nature/existence
Whereas the phenomena composed of them do not"
"imo basically everything in the abhidhamma is unique to the abhidhamma but there are some major philosophicallly fundamental examples like mind moments & elementary dhammas & svabhava self-nature

also the root conditions of the paṭṭhāna & even the dhammasaṅganī on which the abhidhammattha sangaha [another friend on facebook] mentions is based contains a whole lot not in the suttas it's just the relations & the specific enumerations that are unique to the abhidhamma as opposed to the specific concepts of various wholesome & unwholesome citta based on presence or absence of kilesa"
"from a classical theravāda perspective, yes, from an early buddhist perspective, no
it is even recorded - i'm not sure where, i think it is in the canon though, but definitely postdating the buddha's death - by the theravāda school that there was an instance where a monk in the early phase of theravāda denied that the Abhidhamma was spoken by the Buddha
so you can see that there was dissent from the beginning
& abhidhamma didn't show up in any Buddhist school until after the rest of the tipiṭaka & all the early buddhist schools had drastically different abhidhammas whereas they shared suttas & vinaya

also abhidhamma never mentioned in suttas, vinaya, or record of first council"
""There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

To the fore (parimukham): The Abhidhamma takes an etymological approach to this term, defining it as around (pari-) the mouth (mukham). In the Vinaya, however, it is used in a context (Cv.V.27.4) where it undoubtedly means the front of the chest. There is also the possibility that the term could be used idiomatically as "to the front," which is how I have translated it here."
"not saying it is revisionist through & through & yes saying parts of it might not be

vinaya is monastic discipline. the Buddhadhamma throughout suttas is referred to often as dhammavinaya or doctrine & discipline (one reason suggesting abhidhamma fake)"

"abhidhamma is attributed to the Buddha the traditional story is that the Buddha taught it to devas & then relayed it back to sariputta after leaving deva realms every day for like a month but
it doesn't add up & is very very similar of how mahayana justifies their texts saying "humans weren't prepared for it at the time so it was stored away with higher beings until later point"
seems esoteric
& then historically is not supported abhidhamma appeared way later & all the early schools of Buddhism had their own abhidhammas for most part & they all contradicted each other

But they all had identical suttas & vinayas for most part
pretty sure just result of attempt to formulate specific metaphysics
but idk
rly complicated
i mean i will not say with certainty it's fake but it that's what evidence seems to suggest"

me, personally, i've made no attempts to understand the abhidhamma or read it; i avoid it on reasonable suspicion that it's not authentic. i understand that's not good enough for some, but there is plenty of sufficiently liberating content in the early buddhist texts
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:35 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:33 am
Abhidhamma asserts that elementary, momentary (& they give a specific amount of time for a moment) phenomena have sabhāva real true nature/existence ...
It seems to be a very common error to mix up the Abhidhamma Pitaka and later Comentaries. Mind moments are a much later development than the Abhidhamma...

Here's a nice introduction that's being constructed for Sutta Central:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/sc ... hamma/7034
While they introduced a number of new terms and methods, the canonical Abhidhamma texts are doctrinally conservative. Many of the concepts familiar from later Abhidhamma are not found—ultimate vs. conventional truth, mind moments, kalāpas, the idea that each phenomena is defined by its sabhāva or indvidual essence. While some new terms are found, for the most part they seem to have been introduced in order to clarify and disambiguate the terminology, and weren’t intended to convey specific new concepts. That is not to say that there are no new ideas, just that they play a fairly minor role overall.

:heart:
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by theY » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:55 am

Zom wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:48 pm
....

I gave you the pāli link to seaching for the reason yourself, why you never read it?
Do you found your opinion by yourself from pāli canon?
Or you just believe your professors, but never read any abhidhamma-pāli and commentary-pāli by yourself?


In ancient commentary, that authored in buddha times and added more important information about each saṅgāyanā later until 4th saṅgāyanā (then added into siṅhala commentary instead, so it called ancient commentary), said:
  1. In 1st saṅgāyanā, bh. kassapa asked 4 suttanta with bh. ānanda:
    1. Before 1st saṅgāyana, vinaya was memorized & authored by bh. upāli and memorized by his students. Suttanta was memorized by bh. ānanda and his students. Abhidhamma was memorized & authored by bh. sāriputta and memorized by his students. After 1st saṅgāyanā, I explained before.
    2. So, we can see abhidhamma-styled suttanta by sāriputta's sutta that memorized by ānanda in suttas, such as D.N. saṅgītisutta, D.N. dasuttarasutta, etc.
    3. bh. ānanda, was one of not direct bh. sāriputta's students because in mahāgosiṅgasālasutta said ānanda and the other etadagga often go to sāriputta's school to listen sāriputta's teaching.
      • However, ānanda was not a computer, he cannot memorized 4 nikāya together with 6 abhidhamma. (can you memorized sutta-pāli just 1 vagga?)
    4. So, in A.N. ekakanipāta etadagga-pāli, buddha said ānanda was the best in sutta-memorizer, upāli was the best in vinaya, and sāriputta was the best in teaching.
  2. The meaning of dhammavinaya is dhamma+vinaya = (sutta+abhidhamma)+vinaya. So, by the description it was already included in 1st and 2nd ancient theravāda saṅgāyanā.
  3. If you even actually studied abhidhamma, you will see the fact "it is actual that abhidhamma was just a dictionary and commentary of suttanta". Abhidhamma looks like formulas of arahanta. So, alagaddūpamasutta's commentary and introduction of viniaya's commentary said "memorizing whole tipitaka is just a job of arahanta-ariya". Because when arahanta's task done, ādittapariyāya sutta, then he can recite tipitaka full-time. Then when someone memorized many relational stuffs, they will reference each related stuffs together.
So, that is the reason why no each other mention between each canon. My answer is global more than your opinion. Also my answer more reference than your opinion, too. Because I study it directly from pāli, not just a professor believer like you.

So is it a time to begin advance pāli recite and memorize for you, isn't it?
Another in my experience, asoka's magathī is very difference from pāli and commentary. So, abhidhamma, except the 4th canon, and commentary can not wrote in that time.
And, by the way, how will you explain that fact that language in Abidhamma differs a lot (from linguistic point of view) from that in Suttanta?
I explained by the historical reference, not just professor suggestion and imagination like you did.
theY wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:37 am
\
At buddha time, oral reciting&memorizing was the only one way to learn buddha's teaching. So this is the main cause to have commentary at that buddha generation.

Why?

Because Buddha taught each sutta for just students in front of him. So, when bh. ānanda, bh. sāriputta, and bh. upāli had learned oral teaching from buddha, then after buddha finished sutta, they must asked about state, situation, and meaning of each word in that sutta. This was called the great dhamma&vinaya commentary.

There are very less people in tipitaka who appear to be the most important commentators at buddha generation (A.N. Ekapuggala) : budhha, sāriputta (as dhamma teacher), upāli (as vinaya teacher). The others always listen&learned&asked from those important teachers.

The special teaching, about vinaya from buddha to upāli, were appear with upāli literature style in sikkhāpada-nidāna, sikkhāpada-vibhaṅga, parivāra, and the great vinaya commentary (vanished).

The special teaching, about dhamma from buddha to sāriputta, were appear with sāriputta literature style in abhidhamma-pitaka, K.N.Niddesa, K.N. Paṭisambhidāmagga, K.N. Buddhavaṃsa, K.N. Cariyāpitaka, and the great vinaya commentary (vanished).

Tipitaka strongly keep in pali language because of memorizing vinaya rule that force bhikkhu to memorize tipitaka before live alone or teach others.

But the great commentary didn't include in that vinaya rule, so when the time gone by, commentary loose pali form.

However, the great commentary translated to siṅhala after 3rd saṅgāyanā and translated back again (with extended comment from siṅhala-teachers) by buddhaghosa and many bhikkhus at 10th buddhist century.
Layers of pali literature already being in buddha-living-period.

There are many pali literature in buddha's time, such as buddha's literature, sāriputta's literature, mahākaccāna's literature, upāli's literature, etc. Because every mahāsāvaka have there own students.

But the most influential literature are buddha's literature and sāriputta's literature.

4 nikaya are buddha's literature, most of the others cannon are sāriputta's literature, because he is the one who buddha said "sāriputta is the best teacher who can teach like me". So everyone always go to meet sāriputta to listen his teaching, in his literature. But if someone need buddha's literature, they will go to meet buddha or ānanda, who is the best in sutta memorizing.

So, abhidhamma is difference from sutta, because commentary said "abhidhamma is memorized by sāriputta". And the other buddha's sāvaka book also have literature look like sāriputta's literature because everyone in buddha-living-period often go to learn dhamma with sāriputta (see:mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ).

7 Vinaya-pitaka, is memorized by Upāli and his students. He also author some path of parivāra because buddha said in tipitaka (a.n.) "Upāli is the best vinaya-memorizer" (vinayadharānaṃ yadidaṃ upāliฯ).


Suttanta-pitaka is memorized by Ānanda. But in 1st saṅgayanā, 500 arahanta decide to separate whole sutta to 4 nikya.Then they gave each nikya to a group of 4 etadagga and his student to especially memorize it.


Who are the members, of group of 4 etadagga? Ānanda and his students (tn), Sāriputta's students (mn), Kassapa and his students (sn), Anuruddha and his students (an). (The others have learned and memorized dhamma, too, but buddha said "ānanda is the best", so everyone need him in 1st saṅgayanā).


Abhidhamma-pitaka, paṭisambhidāmagga, niddesa, buddhavaṃsa, cariyā-pitaka, except kathāvatthu of moggalliputta, is learned by Sāriputta, But then they are memorized by every arahanta, because everyone in buddha-living-period often go to listen Sāriputta (see:mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ).


Origin: http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0101a.att0.xml


http://unmixedtheravada.blogspot.com/se ... Commentary
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

SarathW
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:13 am

It seems to be a very common error to mix up the Abhidhamma Pitaka and later Comentaries. Mind moments are a much later development than the Abhidhamma...
Agree.
I had the same error of understanding until you point that out some time back. Here is the discussion.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/su ... ha/4725/46
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by theY » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:09 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:13 am
It seems to be a very common error to mix up the Abhidhamma Pitaka and later Comentaries. Mind moments are a much later development than the Abhidhamma...
Agree.
I had the same error of understanding until you point that out some time back. Here is the discussion.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/su ... ha/4725/46
Mind moment is the mind concept that buddha taught to sāriputta. It is appear in many sāriputta's canon. Also it is the main topic of 1st abhidhamma canon, Dhammasaṅgaṇī.

Mind moment also often mention in the end of sutta that has arahanta's enlightenment such as dhammacakkappavattana sutta and ādittapariyāya sutta:
"He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate (virajjati[=no rāga=notaṇhā]/magga). Through dispassion, he is fully released (=vimutti[ta-suffix=past verb]/phala). With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released ' (vimuttamīti ñāṇam hoti/paccavekkhṇañāṇaṃ). He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
If you recited it's pāli, you will understand what was I said.

Do you even recited or memorized any abhidhamma pāli before distort abhidhamma? or even though sutta pāli? It doesn't make sense to decide something without direct knowledge.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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mikenz66
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:44 pm

theY wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:09 am
Mind moment is the mind concept that buddha taught to sāriputta. It is appear in many sāriputta's canon. Also it is the main topic of 1st abhidhamma canon, Dhammasaṅgaṇī....
Of course, one can trace elements of those concepts back to the suttas and abhidhamma. However, statements about billions of mind moments per second, and so on, are not in the Suttas or Abhidhamma.

[I'm speaking here of simply what is and is not in the Canon, not passing a judgement on the usefulness of the commentaries.]

:heart:
Mike

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:23 pm

Do you even recited or memorized any abhidhamma pāli before distort abhidhamma? or even though sutta pāli? It doesn't make sense to decide something without direct knowledge.
I love people like you who try to defend Abhidhamma. I personally believe the billions of mind moment idea even though we can't support it with EBT. What I said was now I understand there is EBT Abhidhamma and commentaries. When I said Abhidhamma in the past I was referring to commentaries.
I have not read the EBT Abhidhamma except some portion of it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:50 am

In ancient commentary, that authored in buddha times and added more important information
Again, don't you find it really strange, that actual description simply say nothing (just nothing at all) about such (from your point of view, of course) important thing as Abhidhamma?

And as for the "ancient commentary, that authored in buddha times" - this is a dubious information. They could be written for example 500 years later after the Buddha. Why? For example, because nothing in Suttanta itself supports such kind of (commentarial) view. If in the core text there is nothing on some topic, then this topic automatically becomes dubious and highly speculative.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by theY » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:11 am

Citta-khaṇa was sāriputta's theory that derived from above A.N. sutta, so it was not appeared too much in suttanta, but appear too much in sāriputta's canons and in 1st saṅgāyanā's commentary which sāriputta's students were very importance as the sutta's commentators because buddha even praised sāriputta as dhamma-teacher, in A.N. Ekapuggala.
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:44 pm
Of course, one can trace elements of those concepts back to the suttas and abhidhamma. However, statements about billions of mind moments per second, and so on, are not in the Suttas or Abhidhamma.
By buddha:
[49] Nāhaṃ bhikkhave aññaṃ ekadhammaṃpi samanupassāmi yaṃ evaṃ
lahuparivattaṃ yathayidaṃ bhikkhave cittaṃ yāvañcidaṃ bhikkhave upamāpi na
sukarā yāva lahuparivattaṃ cittanti
.
...
[54] Accharāsaṅghātamattaṃpi ce bhikkhave bhikkhu mettacittaṃ āsevati
ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave bhikkhu arittajjhāno viharati satthusāsanakaro
ovādapaṭikaro amoghaṃ raṭṭhapiṇḍaṃ bhuñjati ko pana vādo ye
naṃ bahulīkarontīti.
[55] Accharāsaṅghātamattaṃpi ce bhikkhave bhikkhu mettacittaṃ bhāveti
ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave bhikkhu arittajjhāno viharati satthusāsanakaro
ovādapaṭikaro amoghaṃ raṭṭhapiṇḍaṃ bhuñjati ko pana vādo ye naṃ
bahulīkarontīti.
[56] Accharāsaṅghātamattaṃpi ce bhikkhave bhikkhu mettacittaṃ
manasikaroti ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave bhikkhu arittajjhāno viharati
satthusāsanakaro ovādapaṭikaro amoghaṃ raṭṭhapiṇḍaṃ bhuñjati ko pana
vādo ye naṃ bahulīkarontīti.
http://84000.org/tipitaka/pali/roman_it ... de=bracket
So, what you will do if you meditating jhāna, then buddha taught you like that? Won't you try to count citta-khaṇa?

My thinking is more simple than you, right?

My thinking come with reference text, right?

I also can tell you that what I told you "Won't you try to count citta-khaṇa?" happened by sāriputta's close friend, mahāmoggallāna, in K.N. theragāthā:
|400.1181| Koṭisatasahassassa attabhāvaṃ khaṇena nimmine
ahaṃ vikubbanāsu kusalo vasībhūtomhi iddhiyā.

|400.1182| Samādhivijjāvasī pāramīgato
moggallānagotto asitassa sāsane
dhīro samucchindi samāhitindriyo
@Footnote: 1 Ma. dakkhiṇeyyāsi . 2 Ma. Yu. -palippati.
Nāgo yathā pūtilataṃva bandhanaṃ.
http://84000.org/tipitaka/pitaka_item/r ... =26&A=8725
Furthermore, if you actually studied paṭṭhāna, the 7th book of abhidhamma, and try to use paṭṭhāna in vipassanā-meditation, you will know how citta must fast to process every steps in paṭṭhāna. Also, you can see those all citta processes actually happened. It is not just a theory.

Also, the khaṇa topic that appeared in kathāvatthu happened after above sutta in A.N. Ekakanipāta, so that topic can not the origin of khaṇa in abhidhamma.

And, If I am person who listening that A.N. sutta, I will use just an hour to make effort to count citta khaṇa. So, why I have to wait for hundreds years to make this very simple demonstration?

Another, how arahanta, such as sāriputta or moggallāna, in buddha time can explained below context without citta-khaṇa to their doubting students who never enlighten any magga? Or it is general possible that thousands monks in buddha time never asked about below context that appeared in too many sutta, can it?
theY wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:09 am
Mind moment also often mention in the end of sutta that has arahanta's enlightenment such as dhammacakkappavattana sutta and ādittapariyāya sutta:
"He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate (virajjati[=no rāga=notaṇhā]/magga). Through dispassion, he is fully released (=vimutti[ta-suffix=past verb]/phala). With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released ' (vimuttamīti ñāṇam hoti/paccavekkhṇañāṇaṃ). He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
So, for me, your opinion are not make sense anyway. Therefore, I still keep the opinion that "billions of mind moments per second" was the comment from ancient commentary that derived from buddha time and appear in 1st saṅgāyaṇa, because it is more make sense and compatible with A.N. sutta, paṭṭhāna, and monk's behavior which I explained above.
Last edited by theY on Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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mikenz66
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:35 am

Hi theY,
theY wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:11 am
By buddha:
...
Would you be so kind as to give a link to translations, or a link to a site such as Sutta Central where it is easier to work out exactly which passages you are quoting?
Perhaps we have a communication problem. This statement seems to agree that the "billions of mind moments" appears in the commentaries, not the suttas or abdhidhamma:
theY wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:11 am
So, for me, your opinion are not make sense anyway. Therefore, I still keep the opinion that "billions of mind moments per second" was the comment from ancient commentary that derived from buddha time and appear in 1st saṅgāyaṇa, because it is more make sense and compatible with A.N. sutta, paṭṭhāna, and monk's behavior which I explained above.
:heart:
Mike

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