The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:30 am

This is another topic for Abhidhamma discussion
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:31 am
"Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
Our member named rightviewftw often appears to post a common view about the above sutta, namely, the sense bases are physically produced from or physical results of old kamma. However, the Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga appears to say the "ten (physical) sense bases are not associated with the defilements" and are "not a resultant" (nevavipāka). This might be a contradiction.
Eleven sense-bases are not defilements. Ideational sense[-object]-base sometimes is defilement; sometimes is not defilement. Ten sense-bases are objects of the defilements. Two sense-bases sometimes are objects of the defilements; sometimes are not objects of the defilements. Ten sense-bases are not associated with the defilements. Two sense-bases sometimes are associated with the defilements; sometimes are not associated with the defilements. Ten sense-bases should not be said to be, defilements also objects of the defilements; (they) are objects of the defilements but are not defilements. Mind sense-base should not be said to be, defilement also the object of the defilements; (it) sometimes is the object of the defilements but is not defilement; sometimes should not be said to be, the object of the defilements but is not defilement. Ideational sense-base sometimes is defilement also the object of the defilements; sometimes is the object of the defilements but is not defilement; sometimes should not be said to be, defilement also the object of the defilements or the object of the defilements but is not defilement. Ten sense-bases should not be said to be, defilement also associated with the defilements or associated with the defilements but are not defilements. Mind sense-base should not be said to be, defilement also associated with the defilements; (it) sometimes is associated with the defilements but is not defilement; sometimes should not be said to be, associated with the defilements but is not defilement. Ideational sense-base sometimes is defilement also associated with the defilements; sometimes is associated with the defilements but is not defilement; sometimes should not be said to be, defilement also associated with the defilements or associated with the defilements but is not defilement. Ten sense-bases are not associated with the defilements, are objects of the defilements. Two sense-bases sometimes are not associated with the defilements, are objects of the defilements; sometimes are not associated with the defilements, are not objects of the defilements; sometimes should not be said to be, not associated with the defilements, are objects of the defilements or not associated with the defilements, are not objects of the defilements

https://suttacentral.net/vb2/en/thittila
Therein what is the aggregate of form? The aggregate of form by way of singlefold division: All form is not root. Is not accompanied by root. Is not associated with root. Is with cause. Is conditioned. Is material. Is mundane. Is the object of the defilements. Is the object of the fetters. Is the object of the ties. Is the object of the floods. Is the object of the bonds. Is the object of the hindrances. Is the object of the perversions. Is the object of the graspings. Is the object of the corruptions. Is neither-skilful-nor-unskilful. Has no object. Is not mental concomitant. Is not associated with consciousness.Is neither resultant nor productive of resultant (nevavipākanavipākadhammadhammaṃ). Is not corrupt, is the object of the corruptions. Is not “accompanied by initial application, accompanied by sustained application”. Is not “without initial application, sustained application only”. Is without initial application, without sustained application. Is not accompanied by rapture. Is not accompanied by pleasure. Is not accompanied by indifference. Is not to be abandoned either by the first path or by the subsequent paths. Has no root to be abandoned either by the first path or by the subsequent paths. Is neither cumulative nor dispersive (of continuing rebirth and death). Is neither of the seven supramundane stages nor of the final supramundane stage. Is low. Is characteristic of the plane of desire. Is not characteristic of the plane of form. Is not characteristic of the formless plane. Is included (i.e. is mundane). Is not “not included” (i.e. not supramundane). Is of no fixed (resultant time). Does not tend to release. Is risen. Is cognizable by the six types of cognition. Is not permanent. Is subject to decay. Thus is the aggregate of form by way of singlefold division.

https://suttacentral.net/vb1/en/thittila
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:08 am

Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga says:
Tattha katamo dukkhasamudayo? Taṇhā—ayaṃ vuccati “dukkhasamudayo”.

Therein what is the cause of suffering? Craving. This is called the cause of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/vb4/en/thittila
Sutta says:
203. Therein what is the Noble Truth of the cause of suffering? That craving which is cause of future existence, is accompanied by passionate lust, is strong passion for this and that. For example; craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence, craving for non-existence.

https://suttacentral.net/vb4/en/thittila
Since there are many "causes" ("hetu") of suffering, I have not read anywhere in the suttas that craving alone (i.e., without attachment & becoming) can be the "origin" ("samudayo") of suffering. Am I wrong here? If not, is there a contradiction?
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:18 am

Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga refers to skilful & unskilful feeling & perception:
The aggregate of feeling by way of threefold division: Is skilful; is unskilful; is neither-skilful-nor-unskilful.

The aggregate of feeling by way of fivefold division: Is control-ling faculty of pleasure (physical); is faculty of pain (physical); is faculty of mental pleasure; is faculty of mental pain; is faculty of indifference. Thus is the aggregate of feeling by way of fivefold division.

The aggregate of feeling by way of tenfold division: Feeling born of eye contact; feeling born of ear contact; feeling born of nose contact; feeling born of tongue contact; feeling born of body contact that is pleasant, that is painful; feeling born of mind-element-contact; feeling born of mind-consciousness-element-contact that is skilful, that is unskilful, that is neither-skilful-nor-unskilful. Thus is the aggregate of feeling by way of tenfold division.

https://suttacentral.net/vb1/en/thittila
(i.) What on that occasion is the skandha of feeling?

The mental pleasure, the mental ease, which there is on that occasion, the pleasurable, easeful sensation which is born of contact with thought, the pleasant, easeful feeling born of contact with thought—this is the skandha of feeling that there then is (§§3, 10, 18).

https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.1/en/caf_rhysdavids
Is this found in the suttas? Is there are distinction, here? The impression is Abhidhamma (Vibhaṅga & Dhammasaṅgaṇī) give emphasis to mental feeling.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:10 am

About 'sankhara' in Dependent Origination, Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga uses:
1. "Saṅkhārā" (plural) for the sutta explanation (avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā).

2. "Saṅkhāro" (singular) for the Abhidhamma explanation (avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro).

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti
https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms
'About 'bhava', Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga becomes even more unusual.
1. It claims the suttas teach two kind of 'bhava', namely: (i) kammabhavo (deeds); & (ii) upapattibhavo ('rebirth')

2. It says 'kammabhavo' is meritorious (volitional) process, a demeritorious (volitional) process, an impertubable (volitional) process (puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro)

3. It says upapattibhavo is sensual, form, formless, with perception, without perception, neither-perception-nor-non-perception, with one constituent, four constituents, five constituents. (Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekaKāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavobhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo).

4. It also appears to say 'bhava' is the four mental aggregates. Tattha katamo upādānapaccayā bhavo? Ṭhapetvā upādānaṃ, vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho—ayaṃ vuccati “upādānapaccayā bhavo”.

5. Interestingly, it also includes 'The Matrix', where every condition is placed in the position of 1st cause. For example:

With attachment as condition: ignorance, with ignorance as condition there is a (volitional) process, with a (volitional) process as condition: consciousness, with consciousness as condition: mind, with mind as condition: the sixth sense sphere, with the sixth sense sphere as condition: contact, with contact as condition: feeling, with feeling as condition: craving, with craving as condition: attachment, with attachment as condition: continuation, with continuation as condition: birth, with birth as condition: ageing, death, and so there is an origination of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti
https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:08 am
Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga says:
Tattha katamo dukkhasamudayo? Taṇhā—ayaṃ vuccati “dukkhasamudayo”.

Therein what is the cause of suffering? Craving. This is called the cause of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/vb4/en/thittila
Sutta says:
203. Therein what is the Noble Truth of the cause of suffering? That craving which is cause of future existence, is accompanied by passionate lust, is strong passion for this and that. For example; craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence, craving for non-existence.

https://suttacentral.net/vb4/en/thittila
Since there are many "causes" ("hetu") of suffering, I have not read anywhere in the suttas that craving alone (i.e., without attachment & becoming) can be the "origin" ("samudayo") of suffering. Am I wrong here? If not, is there a contradiction?
Both of your quoted passages are to be found in the Vibhaṅga, the first in the analysis according to the Abhidhamma method (abhidhammabhājanīya), the second (taken from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta) in the analysis according to the sutta method (suttabhājanīya). The latter stipulates the three kinds of craving, while the former doesn't, for in the Abhidhamma method all three are just different modes of a single cetasika. Neither amounts to a claim that craving alone is the cause of suffering, but merely that craving is the thing that needs to be made to cease if suffering is to cease.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:18 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:11 am
Neither amounts to a claim that craving alone is the cause of suffering, but merely that craving is the thing that needs to be made to cease if suffering is to cease.
Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. Could you kindly provide some passages to support the above? Thank you. Also, wow, you have read all of this!
Therein what is the cause of suffering? Craving, the remaining corruptions and the remaining unskilful dhammas. This is called the cause of suffering.

Tattha katamo dukkhasamudayo? Taṇhā ca avasesā ca kilesā—ayaṃ vuccati “dukkhasamudayo”.

https://suttacentral.net/vb4/en/thittila
https://suttacentral.net/vb4/pli/ms
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:36 am

Abhidhamma Dhammasaṅgaṇī lists the following as contained within sankhara khandha (formations aggregate):
Contact,
thinking,
conception,
discursive thought,
joy,
self-collectedness,
the faculty of faith,
the faculty of energy,
the faculty of mindfulness,
the faculty of concentration,
the faculty of wisdom,
the faculty of vitality,
right views,
right intention,
right endeavour,
right mindfulness,
right concentration,
the power of faith,
the power of energy,
the power of mindfulness,
the power of concentration,
the power of wisdom,
the power of conscientiousness,
the power of the fear of blame,
absence of lust,
absence of hate,
absence of dullness.
absence of covetousness,
absence of malice,
right views,
conscientiousness,
the fear of blame,
serenity of sense,
serenity of thought,
buoyancy of sense,
buoyancy of thought,
plasticity of sense,
plasticity of thought,
wieldiness of sense,
wieldiness of thought,
fitness of sense,
fitness of thought,
rectitude of sense, .
rectitude of thought,
mindfulness,
intelligence,
quiet,
insight,
grasp,
balance.

https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.1/en/caf_rhysdavids

Katamo
tasmiṃ samaye saṅkhārakkhandho hoti? Phasso cetanā vitakko vicāro pīti cittassekaggatā saddhindriyaṃ vīriyindriyaṃ satindriyaṃ samādhindriyaṃ jīvitindriyaṃ sammāsaṅkappo sammāvāyāmo sammāsati sammāsamādhi saddhābalaṃ vīriyabalaṃ satibalaṃ samādhibalaṃ hiribalaṃ ottappabalaṃ alobho adoso anabhijjhā abyāpādo hirī ottappaṃ kāyapassaddhi cittapassaddhi kāyalahutā cittalahutā kāyamudutā cittamudutā kāyakammaññatā cittakammaññatā kāyapāguññatā cittapāguññatā kāyujukatā cittujukatā sati samatho paggāho avikkhepo

https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.1/pli/ms
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 am

Seven (types of) citta:
Therein what are the seven (types of) citta? Eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, mind element, mind-consciousness-element. These are called the seven (types of) citta.

Tattha katamāni satta cittāni? Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, sotaviññāṇaṃ, ghānaviññāṇaṃ, jivhāviññāṇaṃ, kāyaviññāṇaṃ, manodhātu, manoviññāṇadhātu—imāni vuccanti “satta cittāni

https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
Beings Without Perception :shock:
At the moment of conception of god beings without perception one aggregate is apparent, (viz.) the aggregate of form. Two sense-bases are apparent, (viz.) visible sense-base, ideational sense-base. Two elements are apparent, (viz.) visible element, ideational element. One truth is apparent, (viz.) the truth of suffering. One faculty is apparent, (viz.) the faculty of material vital principle. God beings without perception are apparent (as being) without roots, without nutrients, without contact, without feeling, without perception, without volition, without consciousness.

Asaññasattānaṃ devānaṃ upapattikkhaṇe eko khandho pātubhavati—rūpakkhandho; dve āyatanāni pātubhavanti—rūpāyatanaṃ, dhammāyatanaṃ; dve dhātuyo pātubhavanti—rūpadhātu, dhammadhātu; ekaṃ saccaṃ pātubhavati—dukkhasaccaṃ; ekindriyaṃ
pātubhavati—rūpajīvitindriyaṃ. Asaññasattā devā ahetukā anāhārā aphassakā avedanakā asaññakā acetanakā acittakā pātubhavanti.

https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:59 am

18.6.2. Age Limit

What is the age limit of human beings? One hundred years or less or more. (1)

What is the age limit of Cātumahārājika gods? That which is fifty human years is one night and day of Cātumahārājika gods; of such a night thirty nights is a month; of such a month twelve months is a year; of such a year five hundred god years is the age limit of Cātumahārājika gods; by human calculation how much is this? 9,000,000 years. (2)

What is the age limit of Tavatiṃsa gods? That which is one hundred human years is one night and day of Tāvatiṃsa gods; of such a night thirty nights is a month; of such a month twelve months is a year; of such a year one thousand god years is the age limit of Tāvatiṃsa gods; by human calculation how much is this? 36,000,000 years. (3)

What is the age limit of Yāma gods? That which is two hundred human years is one night and day of Yāma gods; of such a night thirty nights is a month; of such a month twelve months is a year; of such a year two thousand god years is the age limit of Yāma gods; by human calculation how much is this? 144,000,000 years. (4)

What is the age limit of Tusita gods? That which is four hundred human years is one night and day of Tusita gods; of such a night thirty nights is a month; of such a month twelve months is a year; of such a year four thousand god years is the age limit of Tusita gods; by human calculation how much is this? 576,000,000 years. (5)

What is the age limit of Nimmānarati gods? That which is eight hundred human years is one night and day of Nimmānarati gods; of such a night thirty nights is a month; of such a month twelve months is a year; of such a year eight thousand god years is the age limit of Nimmānarati gods; by human calculation how much is this? 2,304,000,000 years. (6)

What is the age limit of Paranimmitavasavatti gods? That which is sixteen hundred human years is one night and day of Paranimmitavasavatti gods; of such a night thirty nights is a month; of such a month twelve months is a year; of such a year sixteen thousand god years is the age limit of Paranimmitavasavatti gods; by human calculation how much is this? 9,216,000,000 years. (7)

These six planes of desire
are prosperous in all sense pleasures,
How much altogether is the age of all (these gods)?
Of these (gods) 1,200 koṭis (plus) 28 koṭis
(Plus) 50 hundred thousand are shown
as the total number of years.

NOTE: 1 koṭi = 10,000,000. Total = 12,285,000,000 years.

Having developed the first jhāna to a low degree, where are (beings) born? Having developed the first jhāna to a low degree they are born into the company of Brahmāparisajja gods. What is their age limit? A third part of an aeon. (8)

Having developed the first jhāna to an intermediate degree, where are (beings) born? Having developed the first jhāna to an intermediate degree they are born into the company of Brahmāpurohita gods. What is their age limit? Half an aeon. (9)

Having developed the first jhāna to a superior degree, where are (beings) born? Having developed the first jhāna to a superior degree they are born into the company of Mahābrahmā gods. What is their age limit? (One) Aeon. (10)

Having developed the second jhāna to a low degree, where are (beings) born? Having developed the second jhāna to a low degree they are born into the company of Parittābhā gods. What is their age limit? Two aeons. (11)

Having developed the second jhāna to an intermediate degree, where are (beings) born? Having developed the second jhāna to an intermediate degree they are born into the company of Appamaṇābhā gods. What is their age limit? Four aeons. (12)

Having developed the second jhāna to a superior degree, where are (beings) born? Having developed the second jhāna to a superior degree they are born into the company of Ābhassara gods. What is their age limit? Eight aeons. (13)

Having developed the third jhāna to a low degree, where are (beings) born? Having developed the third jhāna to a low degree they are born into the company of Parittasubhā gods. What is their age limit? Sixteen aeons. (14)

Having developed the third jhāna to an intermediate degree, where are (beings) born? Having developed the third jhāna to an intermediate degree they are born into the company of Appamaṇasubhā gods. What is their age limit? Thirty-two aeons. (15)

Having developed the third jhāna to a superior degree, where are (beings) born? Having developed the third jhāna to a superior degree they are born into the company of Subhakiṇhā gods. What is their age limit? Sixty-four aeons. (16)

Having developed the fourth jhāna, because of diversity of objects, because of diversity of attention, because of diversity of wish, because of diversity of aim, because of diversity of decision, because of diversity of aspiration, because of diversity of wisdom, some are born into the company of Asaññasatta gods, some are born into the company of Vehapphala gods, some are born into the company of Aviha gods, some are born into the company of Ātappa gods, some are born into the company of Sudassa gods, some are born into the company of Sudassī gods, some are born into the company of Akaniṭṭha gods. Some are born into the company of gods who reach the state of infinity of space, some are born into the company of gods who reach the state of infinity of consciousness, some are born into the company of gods who reach the state of nothingness, some are born into the company of gods who reach the state that is neither perception nor non-perception.

What is the age limit of Asaññasatta and Vehapphala gods? Five hundred aeons. (18)

What is the age limit of Aviha gods? A thousand aeons. (19)

What is the age limit of Ātappa gods? Two thousand aeons. (20)

What is the age limit of Sudassa gods? Four thousand aeons. (21)

What is the age limit of Sudassī gods? Eight thousand aeons. (22)

What is the age limit of Akaniṭṭha gods? Sixteen thousand aeons. (23)

What is the age limit of gods who reach the state of infinity of space? Twenty thousand aeons. (24)

What is the age limit of gods who reach the state of infinity of consciousness? Forty thousand aeons. (25)

What is the age limit of gods who reach the state of nothingness? Sixty thousand aeons. (26)

What is the age limit of gods who reach the state that is neither perception nor non-perception? Eighty-four thousand aeons. (27)

(Beings) Thrown up by power of merit
Go to existence in the planes of desire and form,
(Though) Reaching even the highest existence
They come back again to unpleasant existence.

(Even) Beings having such long life
Fall from exhaustion of life,
No existence is permanent,
Thus was said by the Great Sage.

Therefore indeed the wise who are prudent,
Skilful, thinkers of betterment,
To be free from old age and death
Develop the highest path.

Having developed the pure path
Merging into, leading to Nibbāna,
Comprehending all the defilements
Free from defilements they attain to final release.

https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
It seems like those non-returners that reach the Akaniṭṭha realm might have to abide for sixteen thousand aeons before attaining arahantship. :shock:
With the ending of the five lower fetters they head upstream, going to the Akaniṭṭha realm.

So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā uddhaṃsoto akaniṭṭhagāmī.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.87/en/sujato
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:18 am
Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:11 am
Neither amounts to a claim that craving alone is the cause of suffering, but merely that craving is the thing that needs to be made to cease if suffering is to cease.
Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. Could you kindly provide some passages to support the above?
That it is taṇha in conjunction with other things that is the cause of dukkha? Numerous suttas in the SN's Nidāna Saṃyutta.

That it is taṇhā that needs to be made to cease? The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:
“Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:11 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:40 am
That it is taṇha in conjunction with other things that is the cause of dukkha? Numerous suttas in the SN's Nidāna Saṃyutta.
Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. I am aware the suttas refer to craving leading to new becoming with lust, delight, etc. However, my question to you was referring to the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma appears to only mention craving as the origin of suffering and I think that is incorrect given I think there must also be attachment or becoming for suffering to arise. I think craving alone cannot be the origin (samudaya) of dukkha. Regards
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:27 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:11 am
The Abhidhamma appears to only mention craving as the origin of suffering and I think that is incorrect given I think there must also be attachment or becoming for suffering to arise.
The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta also mentions only craving as dukkhasamudaya. This doesn't mean that the suttas hold craving to be the only cause. Likewise with the Abhidhamma. In both cases we are presented with "a teaching in brief", the complete understanding of which requires the larger doctrinal context to be taken into account.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 am
Beings Without Perception :shock:
The "devas called 'beings without perception'" (asaññasattā nāma devā) can also be found in DN. 1, 15, 24, 33, 34, and AN. 9:24
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:07 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:27 pm
The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta also mentions only craving as dukkhasamudaya.
Thank you Venerable Dhammanando but I disagree here. I think "bhava" is essential to the arising of dukkha. Suttas, such as MN 148, appear to suggest the possibility of experiencing mere craving without the arising of dukkka. Also, there is the sutta phrase: "delight is the root of suffering". MN 38 says "delight in feelings is attachment". Thus for dukkha to "arise", I think attachment or becoming are required. I think "samudaya" ("origin" or "arising") does not mean "cause" ("hetu"). I think dukkha samudaya refers to the whole process of the arising of suffering itself, where becoming indicates the suffering. Thus in some suttas, such as AN 3.61, all of the twelve conditions of Dependent Origination are said to be the 2nd noble truth or "arising of suffering". Regards
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:06 am
The "devas called 'beings without perception'" (asaññasattā nāma devā) can also be found in DN. 1, 15, 24, 33, 34, and AN. 9:24
Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. I'll check out these suttas. However, since many suttas, such as MN 43, say perception & consciousness are co-joined and inseparable, I can't imagine "a being" without perception (unless it is the mere physical body in Nirodha Samapatti). Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by sentinel » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:59 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:07 am
I can't imagine "a being" without perception (unless it is the mere physical body in Nirodha Samapatti). Regards
Hello DD ,

The beings in this jhanic realm is in a state of non perception but when circumstances are met the perception would still arises and thereafter recede back to non perception .

Regards
:buddha1:

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