The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Subharo
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Subharo » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:59 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:34 pm
Commentary already said, but you has not ability to read it, Zom.
How rude 8-)

However, I repeat, that information in the Commentary concerning 1st council and Abhidhamma is very dubious, strongly reminding mahayanic stories of "secret suttas" brought by Nagarjuna from Naga Realm ,)

If we take bare facts
Zom and TheY, I think the two of you might as well argue from opposite cliffs with a canyon in between you for eternity. It seems that you come from two very different cultures, with very different ways of thinking.

Please consider the following quotation:
“The Scientific Revolution has not been a revolution of knowledge. It has been above all a revolution of ignorance. The great discovery that launched the Scientific Revolution was the discovery that humans do not know the answers to their most important questions. Premodern traditions of knowledge such as Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and Confucianism asserted that everything that is important to know about the world was already known. The great gods, or the one almighty God, or the wise people of the past possessed all-encompassing wisdom, which they revealed to us in scriptures and oral traditions. Ordinary mortals gained knowledge by delving into these ancient texts and traditions and understanding them properly. It was inconceivable that the Bible, the Qur’an or the Vedas were missing out on a crucial secret of the universe – a secret that might yet be discovered by flesh-and-blood creatures.
― Yuval Noah Harari, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind
Zom, you come from a culture where the Scientific Revolution occurred and reshaped virtually everyone's way of thinking. TheY, I'm venturing a guess that you come from a culture that Harari would call "Premodern".

As I see it, (and please correct me if I'm wrong) here is the crux of your impasse:

Zom, you feel you are entitled to bring any and all historical or linguistic or archaeological or what-have-you evidence to the table to make valid arguments (as would any Westerner, pretty much), but from TheY's point of view, those arguments could never add up to anything whatsoever. And why not? Because those arguments were not drawn internally from the Tipitika itself. Only arguments drawn internally from the Tipitika (which is to be interpreted literally and Fundamentally) have any validity. Those internal arguments ARE validity. And arguments external to the Tipitika are Fundamentally wrong.

Zom and TheY, have I represented your views correctly?
Subharo Bhikkhu
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha :buddha1:

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Zom
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Zom » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:20 pm

Zom, you feel you are entitled to bring any and all historical or linguistic or archaeological or what-have-you evidence to the table to make valid arguments (as would any Westerner, pretty much), but from TheY's point of view, those arguments could never add up to anything whatsoever. And why not? Because those arguments were not drawn internally from the Tipitika itself. Only arguments drawn internally from the Tipitika (which is to be interpreted literally and Fundamentally) have any validity. Those internal arguments ARE validity. And arguments external to the Tipitika are Fundamentally wrong.
If you want to know my position, I will just cite Buddha in this very Tipitaka itself:

"There are five things, Bharadvaja, that
may turn out in two different ways here and now. What five?
Faith, approval, oral tradition, reasoned cogitation, and reflective
acceptance of a view. These five things may turn out in
two different ways here and now. Now something may be fully
accepted out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but
something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may
be factual, true, and unmistaken. Again, something may be
fully approved of...may be well cogitated...may be well reflected
upon, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something
else may not be well reflected upon, yet it may be factual, true,
and unmistaken. [Under these conditions] it is not proper for a
wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion:
'Only this is true, anything else is wrong.'"


Now, as Buddha says, it is foolish to say something is true only because a tradition says so. If one wants to know something, one has to be as much objective as possible, taking into account as many arguments as possible.

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Subharo
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Subharo » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:01 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:20 pm
Now, as Buddha says, it is foolish to say something is true only because a tradition says so. If one wants to know something, one has to be as much objective as possible, taking into account as many arguments as possible.
Zom, some people are intelligent enough to break out of a cage constructed of circular logic, and others aren't. That's just how it is. So I guess this debate can pretty much NEVER end then.
Subharo Bhikkhu
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha :buddha1:

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Zom
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Zom » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:58 pm

Debate? No, of course not -)

But others, who doesn't know all this, at least, will have some different point of views on the matter, which is not bad.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:08 pm

'I have preached the truth without making any distinction between exoteric and esoteric doctrine: for in respect of the truths, Ananda, the Tathagata has no such thing as the closed fist of a teacher, who keeps some things back.

DN 16
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Saengnapha
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:55 am

Subharo wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:01 pm
Zom wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:20 pm
Now, as Buddha says, it is foolish to say something is true only because a tradition says so. If one wants to know something, one has to be as much objective as possible, taking into account as many arguments as possible.
Zom, some people are intelligent enough to break out of a cage constructed of circular logic, and others aren't. That's just how it is. So I guess this debate can pretty much NEVER end then.
Really?

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DooDoot
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:34 am

I posted this elsewhere, which says dependent origination 'sankhara' is plural in the suttas but singular in the Abidhamma (by Nyanatiloka).


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