Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by Coëmgenu »

Coyote wrote:What were these other unconditioned elements?
I may be necroposting here big time, but another user brought this thread to my attention and I think that it is a very interesting topic that I could contribute something to, in case anyone else had questions that related to the OP:
Coyote wrote:In a recent talk Ven. Sujato references the fact that the Theravadin school is the only early Buddhist school that recognised only one unconditioned element, nibbana. Other schools apparently had lists of other phenomena they considered unconditioned, besides nibbana.
The most infamous of other historical Buddhist schools to consider the existence of unconditioned dhammas a point of doctrinal significance was the Sarvāstivāda, because they (or most of them) went as far as ascribing unconditionedness and quasi-eternal persistence to all dhammas (a very radical claim for Buddhist metaphysics). In addition to this doctrinal point, in other Sarvāstivāda texts sometimes only four ranks of dhammas are described as unconditioned: dhammas of cessation, dhammas of mind, dhammas of mental objects, and dhammas of mental consciousness.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by cappuccino »

The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated, perishes, and does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote:The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated, perishes, and does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
The standard Buddhist responce to this is: because the saint never existed, he can never be annihilated.

I don't find it exceptionally convincing.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by cappuccino »

The Blessed One would never say that the saint does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote:The Blessed One would never say that the saint does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
Isn't this a bit of a misquotation? You forgot to add a "[...]", which is always a good idea to include when you alter a quote, yes?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote:Isn't this a bit of a misquotation?
No.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Isn't this a bit of a misquotation?
No.
I've been looking for you quote and I cannot find it. There seems to be several lines close to what you wrote, but none with that exact same contents.

Where did you find this quote in the sutta?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote:Where did you find this quote in the sutta?
"the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by User156079 »

tiltbillings wrote:Space.
imo, experiential manifestation of Space is conditioned by perception.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Where did you find this quote in the sutta?
"the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Yes, that is the quote in its proper context. :anjali:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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dylanj
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by dylanj »

Coyote wrote:In a recent talk Ven. Sujato references the fact that the Theravadin school is the only early Buddhist school that recognised only one unconditioned element, nibbana.
This is controversial within Theravāda. The Kathāvatthu says nibbāna is the only unconditioned element, the Milindapañha says space is unconditioned as well. The former position is proposed by Moggaliputta Tissa, the latter by Nāgasena. Theravāda considers both to be arahants.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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dylanj
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by dylanj »

Coëmgenu wrote:The standard Buddhist responce to this is: because the saint never existed, he can never be annihilated.

I don't find it exceptionally convincing.
Standard Buddhist response? No, I don't buy it...there's nothing authoritative about that response & I've only seen it expressed from modern western theravādins...to me it seems to be yet another nihilist view.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by cappuccino »

If you never existed, this is extreme.
If you always existed… as you, this is another extreme.

Nothing is self… those extremes fail.
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
maranadhammomhi wrote:This is controversial within Theravāda. The Kathāvatthu says nibbāna is the only unconditioned element, the Milindapañha says space is unconditioned as well. The former position is proposed by Moggaliputta Tissa, the latter by Nāgasena. Theravāda considers both to be arahants.
Indeed it is controversial. I believe Milindapañha is taking a materialist stance of naive realism when speaking of "space" as asankhata. As such I disagree with it, because the only thing that sankhata applies to is phenomenological experience (i.e. not objective physical elements or the lack thereof). The experience of space, even in its most sublime and infinite jhanic form, is still sankhata.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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