the great 32 Marks of a Great Man thread

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Individual
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Individual »

TheDhamma wrote:Robert Bluck writes (above):

"Each of the Buddha’s marks is seen imaginatively as relating to spiritual progress, from the ‘well-planted feet’ which resemble ‘the first steps one takes towards the Dhamma’ to the ‘turban crown’ which symbolizes ‘insight into the real nature of things: anicca, dukkha, anatta’ (Thirty-Two Marks, 1995: 106–7)."

The use of 'imaginatively' and 'symbolizes' seems to imply a metaphorical, symbolic account of the 32 marks.
On this, it's worth pointing out that the Brahmajala Sutta says:
...tying the hair into a top-knot... Samana Gotama abstains from such embellishment and adornment. A worldling, bhikkhus, might praise the Tathagata in this manner.
And yet, of the Buddha's characteristics, they include:
53. His topknot is like a crown.

...

80. He has a topknot as if crowned with a flower garland.
So, did he have a top-knot or not? Based on the described appearance of the Buddha, most statues give him a top-knot. In one sutta (forget which, though), Upali the barber cut his hair, suggesting Gautama wasn't bald.
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Fede »

Individual, you had a great, long, huge thread on another forum on this 'topknot' business.... you still asking.....?? :popcorn:
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Fede wrote::oops:


On the subject of this Pandora's Box... where did I read that Hope (left behind and trapped in the box) was not a positive sign, but rather a negative one, and that Hope, whilst appearing to be a positive attribute, actually raises far too many desires, only to see them dashed and destroyed....? Hope was, after all, in the Box, denoted as containing "All the Evil of Mankind".....
I wish I could find the post.
It made sense......
That was me, a revelation I had in high school while reading Bullfinch's Mythology. That cynical bit of my rambling was on e-sangha under a thread about Japanese soldiers losing hope. One of my more darker gems, I'll admit. :tongue:

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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Jechbi »

Individual wrote:So, did he have a top-knot or not?
Are you sure it's not just a big snail?
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Individual »

Fede wrote:Individual, you had a great, long, huge thread on another forum on this 'topknot' business.... you still asking.....?? :popcorn:
:namaste:
I'm not asking, because I don't think there is a sufficient answer. When I asked, I don't remember getting a straightforward answer. I remember hearing some people flat-out deny it was a topknot without substantiating their claim. I mention it here because it is relevant, demonstrating a case of a possibly metaphorical description of the Buddha's appearance.
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Dhammanando »

Individual wrote:So, did he have a top-knot or not?
Taking into account the Suttas' teaching on the eight great assemblies, I would suppose that the Buddha exhibited a top-knot when visiting assemblies of people with top-knots, but not when visiting other kinds of assembly.

  • 'Ananda, there are these eight kinds of assembly. What are they? They are an assembly of khattiyas, an assembly of brahmins, an assembly of householders, an assembly of ascetics, an assembly of devas of the Realm of the Four Great Kings, an assembly of the Thirty-Three Gods, an assembly of maras, an assembly of Brahmas.

    'I remember well, Ananda, many hundreds of assemblies of Khattiyas that I have attended; and before I sat down with them, spoke to them or joined in their conversation, I adopted their appearance and speech, whatever it might be. And I instructed, inspired, fired and delighted them with a discourse on Dhamma. And as I spoke with them they did not know me and wondered: "Who is it that speaks like this? Is he a deva or is he a man?" And having thus instructed them, I vanished from there, and still they did not know: "He who has just vanished - was he a deva or was he a man?"

    'I remember well, Ananda, many hundreds of assemblies of brahmins ... many hundreds of assemblies of householders ... many hundreds of assemblies of ascetics ... many hundreds of assemblies of devas of the Realm of the Four Great Kings ... many hundreds of assemblies of the Thirty-Three Gods, many hundreds of assemblies of maras ...

    'I remember well, Ananda, many hundreds of assemblies of Brahmas that I have attended; and before I sat down with them, spoke to them or joined in their conversation, I adopted their appearance and speech, whatever it might be. And I instructed, inspired, fired and delighted them with a discourse on Dhamma. And as I spoke with them they did not know me and wondered: "Who is it that speaks like this? Is he a deva or is he a man?" And having thus instructed them, I vanished from there, and still they did not know: "He who has just vanished from here - was he a deva or was he a man?"
    (Parisa Sutta, AN. iv. 307-8; Mahaparinibbana Sutta, DN. ii. 109-110)
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32 signs

Post by lucky-2012 »

Can anyone direct me to the sutta(s) which list the 32 marks of a Buddha, if any?

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Re: 32 signs

Post by bodom »

Lakkhana Sutta
http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Lakkhana_Sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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Re: 32 signs

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

Interesting signs! This article explains a little more:


The 32 Signs of a Great Man (mahā purisa lakkhaṇa)
are auspicious marks that are supposed to be present on the bodies of all Buddhas.
Although only incidental to Buddhism, this idea is the theme of three discourses (D.II,142; M.II,133; Sn.103) and is mentioned briefly in several others. The idea of the Signs has its origins in Brahmanism and was incorporated into Buddhism at a later period for reasons that are not clear.
Some of the Signs, like the long tongue, the blue eyes, the golden complexion and the ensheathed penis, were probably connected with the ancient Indian concept of idealized physical beauty. Others are so strange, grotesque even, that it is difficult to know what to make of them.

When the seer Asita came to visit the new born Buddha-to-be, Siddhattha Gotama, he mentions that he sees the signs or marks of a great man and lists some of them. This confirms that this concept is a pre-Buddhist idea.

It is very clear from the Tipitaka that the Buddha's physical appearance was normal in every way. When King Ajātasattu went to meet him he was unable to distinguish him from the disciples surrounding him (D.I,50). If the Buddha had any of the 32 Signs the king would have recognized him immediately.
Pukkasāti sat talking to the Buddha for hours before realizing who he was (M.III,238). If the Buddha had any of the Signs the young man would have soon noticed it and known that he was someone unusual.
When Upaka encountered the Buddha walking along the road to Gaya the thing he noticed most about him was 'clear faculities and radiant complexion' (M.I,170). He did not mention seeing any of the 32 Signs.

In the Buddha's teachings, the external and the physical are always subordinate to the internal and the psychological (S.I,169). The Buddha was aware of the Brahmanical concept that a ‘great man' could be known by his physical characteristics and he rejected this notion. Someone once asked him: ‘They talk about a ‘great man,' a ‘great man.' But what is it that makes a great man?' The Buddha replied: ‘It is by freeing the mind that someone becomes a great man. Without freeing the mind one cannot be a great man' (S.V,157).

Complete list of the 32 Marks or signs of a Great Man
1. He has feet with a level sole (Pali: supati thapado). Note: "feet with level tread,/ so that he places his foot evenly on the ground,/ lifts it evenly,/ and touches the ground evenly with the entire sole." (Lakkhana Sutta)
2. He has the mark of a thousand-spoked wheel on the soles of his feet (Pali: he thapadatalesu cakkani jatani).
3. He has projecting heels (Pali: ayatapa ni).
4. He has long fingers and toes (Pali: digha nguli).
5. His hands and feet are soft-skinned (Pali: mudutalahathapado).
6. He has netlike lines on palms and soles (Pali: jalahathapado).
7. He has high raised ankles (Pali: ussa nkhapado).
8. He has taut calf muscles like an antelope (Pali: e nimigasadisaja ngho).
9. He can touch his knees with the palms of his hands without bending. (Pali: thitako va anonamanto).
10. His sexual organs are concealed in a sheath (Pali: kosohitavatguyho).
11. His skin is the color of gold (Pali: suva n nava no). "His body is more beautiful than all the gods." (Lakkhana sutta)
12. His skin is so fine that no dust can attach to it (Pali: sukhumacchavi).
13. His body hair are separate with one hair per pore (Pali: ekekalomo).
14. His body hair are blue-black, the color of collyrium, and curls clockwise in rings. (Pali: uddhagalomo).
15. He has an upright stance like that of brahma (Pali: brahmujugatto).
16. He has the seven convexities of the flesh (Pali: satusado). Note: "the seven convex surfaces,/ on both hands, both feet, both shoulders, and his trunk." (Lakkhana Sutta)
17. He has an immense torso, like that of a lion (Pali: sihapuba dhakayo).
18. The furrow between his shoulders is filled in (Pali: pitantara mso).
19. The distance from hand-to-hand and head-to-toe is equal (Pali: nigrodhaparima n dalo). Note: incidentally, these are also the ideal proportions according to Leonardo Da Vinci’s Vitruvian Man.
20. He has a round and smooth neck (Pali: samva d dakhando).
21. He has sensitive taste-buds (Pali: rasagasagi).
22. His jaw is like that of lion's (Pali: sihahanu).
23. He has a nice smile
24. His teeth are evenly spaced (Pali: samadanto).
25. His teeth are without gaps in-between (Pali: avira ladanto).
26. His teeth are quite white (Pali: sukadanto).
27. He has a large, long tongue (Pali: pahutajivho).
28. He has a voice like that of Brahma (Pali: brahmasaro hiravikabha ni).
29. He has very blue eyes (Pali: abhi nila netto). Note 1: "very (abhi) blue (nila) eyes (netto)" is the literal translation. Nila is the word used to describe a sapphire and the color of the sea, but also the color of a rain cloud. It also defines the color of the Hindu God Krishna. Note 2: "His lashes are like a cow's; his eyes are blue./ Those who know such things declare/ 'A child which such fine eyes/ will be one who's looked upon with joy./ If a layman, thus he'll be/ Pleasing to the sight of all./ If ascetic he becomes,/ Then loved as healer of folk's woes.'" (Lakkhana Sutta)
30. He has eyelashes like an ox (Pali: gopa mukho).
31. He has a white soft wisp of hair in the center of the brow (Pali: una loma bhamukantare jata). Note: this became the symbolic urna.
32. His head is like a royal turban (Pali: u nahisiso). Note that this denotes his cranial protrusion, visible on Buddhist iconography.
http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=3 ... _great_man" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: 32 signs

Post by Sokehi »

Excellent, clarifying post dear Chris with good reference to the suttas :)
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Re: 32 signs

Post by Khalil Bodhi »

Sadhu! Thank you again Chris! I never cease to be amazed at your ability to find just the right article or discourse.
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Re: 32 signs

Post by lucky-2012 »

Thanks all.

Of course the Buddha had a normal appearance!

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the great 32 Marks of a Great Man thread

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

firstly, i would like to address this article: https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/32_sig ... _great_man
what hard evidence is there that the marks were a later addition? yes, i have read some persuasive arguments by bhikkhu sujāto that because the buddha was indistinguishable from other monks to one or some people in the canon the marks are thus false. however, it is known from DN 3 To Ambaṭṭha that the marks are only detectable to the trained eye. not only that but we have not only, of course, evidence of the supernormal but evidence of beings who change their appearance.
since i keep having this discussion with a facebook friend, and he insists that the issue of the marks isn't important, while i insist they are, because i don't have good reason to doubt their authenticity, and his insistence on rejecting them, despite 'not being important', i brought it here. i hope this won't be chunked into another thread because the issue is further pertinent in the context of early buddhism. we accept that the body is old kamma? the tathāgata has most excellent kamma. his skin was able to exceed the gleam of polished gold robes in DN 16. the marks are grotesque? the human body was said to be a smelly, oozing boil (can go grab that reference if i have to). wheels appear on the buddha's feet in Doṇa sutta. do we just throw out the parts of the canon we don't immediately agree with?
it is precisely the people who speak on this issue as unimportant who reflect its importance
Last edited by Dhammarakkhito on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great 32 Marks of a Great Man thread

Post by DNS »

I merged your topic with some of the previous topics on this issue. It is something that naturally comes up from time to time, so thought I'd create another 'great' (as in large) thread covering this topic.
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

DNS wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:19 pm Great thread, the obligatory 32 Marks thread . . .

At one time Wikipedia had a big section about the 32 Marks and even listed all of them, at the beginning of the article on the Buddha. To me, it may have been an honest mistake or at worst, a deliberate attempt to make Buddhism appear mythological. It is not an essential teaching in Buddhism and in my opinion should be taken metaphorically. After some convincing, Wikipedia did remove the 32 Marks to a small section and different article.

Not all suttas are to be taken literally (fortunately):

Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata.”

Anguttara Nikaya 2.25
this has nothing to do with being literal or figurative but about which teachings need to be expounded on and which are sufficient by themselves
this argument has been made that it's not essential (the marks) yet the buddha purportedly spoke on them. the buddha has stated he only spoke words that were beneficial. we could really toss out what ever didn't conform to our view before coming into contact with buddhism, regardless if we are talking about the marks or about psychic powers, heaven and hell, rebirth, devas, etc. i believe this is an effort by māra to wipe buddhism from the earth completely. when we change, minimize or eliminate the buddha's teaching it disappears and this he actually spoke of. what good being done by this site is being hidden by its abundance of misinformation, like the moon to the sun during an eclipse
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