Help Finding an Agama

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Ceisiwr
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Help Finding an Agama

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hello everyone,

Does anyone know of an english translation of the chinese parallel to this sutta? Any help would be much appreciated :)
At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has thereby originated. So there is this body and external name-and-form: thus this dyad. Dependent on the dyad there is contact. There are just six sense bases, contacted through which—or through a certain one among them—the fool experiences pleasure and pain.

“Bhikkhus, for the wise man, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has thereby originated. So there is this body and external name-and-form: thus this dyad. Dependent on the dyad there is contact. There are just six sense bases, contacted through which—or through a certain one among them—the wise man experiences pleasure and pain. What, bhikkhus, is the distinction here, what is the disparity, what is the difference between the wise man and the fool?”

“Venerable sir, our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, take recourse in the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would clear up the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from him, the bhikkhus will remember it.”

“Then listen and attend closely, bhikkhus, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the fool that ignorance has not been abandoned and that craving has not been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the fool has not lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the fool fares on to another body. Faring on to another body, he is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.

“Bhikkhus, for the wise man, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the wise man that ignorance has been abandoned and that craving has been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the wise man has lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to another body. Not faring on to another body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.

“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the wise man and the fool, that is, the living of the holy life.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/bodhi

Thanks

Metta
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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Dhammanando
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Re: Help Finding an Agama

Post by Dhammanando »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 8:09 pm
Does anyone know of an english translation of the chinese parallel to this sutta? Any help would be much appreciated :)
I don't know of any translation of the Chinese parallel, but Ernst Waldschmidt has a German translation of the Nivṛtasūtra, a parallel sūtra from the Sanskrit fragments of the Saṃyukta Āgama.

https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/tripathi1962

The link is to scanned pages from Fünfundzwanzig Sūtras des Nidānasaṃyukta (Berlin, 1962), but if you don't read German, just click on the site's OCR option and then copy and paste into Google translate. It's eight pages in all, for Waldschmidt's a German philologist of the old school, and so half of each page consists of footnotes.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Help Finding an Agama

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 5:19 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 8:09 pm
Does anyone know of an english translation of the chinese parallel to this sutta? Any help would be much appreciated :)
I don't know of any translation of the Chinese parallel, but Ernst Waldschmidt has a German translation of the Nivṛtasūtra, a parallel sūtra from the Sanskrit fragments of the Saṃyukta Āgama.

https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/tripathi1962

The link is to scanned pages from Fünfundzwanzig Sūtras des Nidānasaṃyukta (Berlin, 1962), but if you don't read German, just click on the site's OCR option and then copy and paste into Google translate. It's eight pages in all, for Waldschmidt's a German philologist of the old school, and so half of each page consists of footnotes.
Thank you Bhante :) that’s very helpful.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

sentinel
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Re: Help Finding an Agama

Post by sentinel »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 8:09 pm
Hello everyone,

Does anyone know of an english translation of the chinese parallel to this sutta? Any help would be much appreciated :)
Hello Ceisiwr , here is the first part of my amateur translation of the agama parallel .

Hope this help .
Regards

https://suttacentral.net/sa294/lzh/taisho

如是我聞:
Thus i have heard
一時,佛住王舍城迦蘭陀竹園。
At one time , Buddha was residing at
Veṇu-vana Vihara Rajagaha .

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。內有此識身,外有名色,此二因緣生觸。此六觸入所觸,愚癡無聞凡夫苦樂受覺,因起種種。云何為六?眼觸入處,耳、鼻、舌、身、意觸入處。
At that time , the Buddha addressed the bhikkhus , foolish unlearned worldling obstructed by ignorance , bonded by craving , thus this body were acquired .
internally there is this consciousness body , externally the namarupa whereby this two conditions give rise to contact . When contact happen at this six sense bases , foolish unlearned worldling experiences pleasurable and painful feeling , thus arises various factors . Which are the six ? Eyes sense base , ears , nose , tongue , body , mind sense bases .

若黠慧者無明覆,愛緣繫得此識身。如是內有識身,外有名色,此二緣生六觸入處,六觸所觸故,智者生苦樂受覺,因起種種。何等為六?眼觸入處,耳、鼻、舌、身、意觸入處。愚夫、黠慧,彼於我所修諸梵者,有何差別?」
If those intelligent one , obscured by ignorance , bonded by craving , hence acquired this consciousness body . Therefore there is this internal consciousness body , and external are the namarupa . This two conditions give rise to six sense bases . When contact happen at this six sense bases , the wise experiences the painful and pleasurable feeling , this give rise to various factors . Which are the six ? Eye , ears , nose , tongue , body , mind sense bases . What is the difference with the fool and wise , those lived the holy life ?
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Help Finding an Agama

Post by Ceisiwr »

sentinel wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:03 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 8:09 pm
Hello everyone,

Does anyone know of an english translation of the chinese parallel to this sutta? Any help would be much appreciated :)
Hello Ceisiwr , here is the first part of my amateur translation of the agama parallel .

Hope this help .
Regards

https://suttacentral.net/sa294/lzh/taisho

如是我聞:
Thus i have heard
一時,佛住王舍城迦蘭陀竹園。
At one time , Buddha was residing at
Veṇu-vana Vihara Rajagaha .

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。內有此識身,外有名色,此二因緣生觸。此六觸入所觸,愚癡無聞凡夫苦樂受覺,因起種種。云何為六?眼觸入處,耳、鼻、舌、身、意觸入處。
At that time , the Buddha addressed the bhikkhus , foolish unlearned worldling obstructed by ignorance , bonded by craving , thus this body were acquired .
internally there is this consciousness body , externally the namarupa whereby this two conditions give rise to contact . When contact happen at this six sense bases , foolish unlearned worldling experiences pleasurable and painful feeling , thus arises various factors . Which are the six ? Eyes sense base , ears , nose , tongue , body , mind sense bases .

若黠慧者無明覆,愛緣繫得此識身。如是內有識身,外有名色,此二緣生六觸入處,六觸所觸故,智者生苦樂受覺,因起種種。何等為六?眼觸入處,耳、鼻、舌、身、意觸入處。愚夫、黠慧,彼於我所修諸梵者,有何差別?」
If those intelligent one , obscured by ignorance , bonded by craving , hence acquired this consciousness body . Therefore there is this internal consciousness body , and external are the namarupa . This two conditions give rise to six sense bases . When contact happen at this six sense bases , the wise experiences the painful and pleasurable feeling , this give rise to various factors . Which are the six ? Eye , ears , nose , tongue , body , mind sense bases . What is the difference with the fool and wise , those lived the holy life ?

Thank you! :)
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

auto
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Re: Help Finding an Agama

Post by auto »

nice, kāya is consciousness.
that what breaks apart at death.

and we can see how the sense organs are coming later, the actual shape of a body what we see with these same sense organs.

thomaslaw
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Re: Help Finding an Agama

Post by thomaslaw »

Regarding the translation and study of SA 294 and its corresponding Pali SN 12.19, you may read the following:

Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 184-188.

:buddha1:

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Help Finding an Agama

Post by Ceisiwr »

thomaslaw wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:59 am
Regarding the translation and study of SA 294 and its corresponding Pali SN 12.19, you may read the following:

Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 184-188.

:buddha1:
Yes I have read it. I don’t agree that namarupa are sense objects. Instead namarupa looks more like the sense bases, or what comes just prior out of which the sense bases are constructed, as per DN 15.

Metta

:)
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

sentinel
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Re: Help Finding an Agama

Post by sentinel »

Namarupa is a mnemonic phrase .
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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