What exactly is 'domanassa'?

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DooDoot
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What exactly is 'domanassa'?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:58 am

Dear DW forum

SN 12.2 says:
SN 12.2 wrote:And what is feeling?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, vedanā?

There are these six classes of feeling.
Chayime, bhikkhave, vedanākāyā

Feeling born of contact through the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind.

cakkhusamphassajā vedanā, sotasamphassajā vedanā, ghānasamphassajā vedanā, jivhāsamphassajā vedanā, kāyasamphassajā vedanā, manosamphassajā vedanā.

This is called feeling.
Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, vedanā.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato
MN 141 says:
MN 141 wrote:And what is sadness?
Katamañcāvuso, domanassaṃ?

Mental pain, mental displeasure, the painful, unpleasant feeling that’s born from mind contact.
Yaṃ kho, āvuso, cetasikaṃ dukkhaṃ cetasikaṃ asātaṃ manosamphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ,

This is called sadness.
idaṃ vuccatāvuso: ‘domanassaṃ’.

https://suttacentral.net/mn141/en/sujato
However, there are suttas appearing to refer to Arahants experiencing manosamphassajā vedanā (mental feelings) as follows:
MN 38 wrote:When they know a thought with their mind, if it’s pleasant they don’t desire it, and if it’s unpleasant they don’t dislike it. They live with mindfulness of the body established and a limitless heart.

manasā dhammaṃ viññāya piyarūpe dhamme na sārajjati, appiyarūpe dhamme na byāpajjati, upaṭṭhitakāyasati ca viharati appamāṇacetaso,

And they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over.

tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti yatthassa te pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti.

Having given up favoring and opposing, when they experience any kind of feeling — pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral—they don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to it.

So evaṃ anurodhavirodhavippahīno yaṃ kiñci vedanaṃ vedeti, sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā, so taṃ vedanaṃ nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati.

As a result, relishing of feelings ceases.

Tassa taṃ vedanaṃ anabhinandato anabhivadato anajjhosāya tiṭṭhato yā vedanāsu nandī sā nirujjhati.

When their relishing ceases, grasping ceases. When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. When continued existence ceases, rebirth ceases. When rebirth ceases, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease.

Tassa nandīnirodhā upādānanirodho, upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho, bhavanirodhā jātinirodho, jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti.

That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.

Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato
MN 148 wrote:Mind consciousness arises dependent on the mind and thoughts. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for what is felt as pleasant, painful, or neutral.

“Manañca, bhikkhave, paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso, phassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā.

When you experience a pleasant feeling, if you don’t approve, welcome, and keep clinging to it,

So sukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati.

it’s totally possible to make an end of suffering in the present life.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
Interestingly, Iti 44 appears to say Arahant do not experience mental feelings, as follows:
Iti 44 wrote:Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain.

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland
Topics for discussion are:

1. Does the word 'domanassa' refer to all unpleasant feelings arising from mind contact, per MN 141?

2. Or does the word 'domanassa' only refer to unpleasant feelings arising from mind contact with mental proliferations born from craving & attachment (aka papanca), per MN 38?

3. Do arahants experience unpleasant feelings born from mind contact, per MN 148 & MN 38 and contrary to Iti 44?

:reading:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:52 am

domanassa: lit. 'sad-mindedness', grief, i.e. mentally painful feeling (cetasika-vedanā), is one of the 5 feelings (vedanā, q.v.) and one of the 22 faculties (indriya, q.v.). According to the Abhidhamma, grief is always associated with antipathy and grudge, and therefore kammically unwholesome (akusala, q.v.) Cf. Tab. I. 30, 31.

somanassa: lit 'glad-minded-ness' (su+manas+ya), gladness, joy; identical with 'mentally agreeable feeling' (cetasikā sukhā vedanā), belongs to the feeling-group (vedanākkhandha, s. khandha II), and is enumerated amongst the 22 faculties (indriya, q.v.). It may or may not be associated with kammically wholesome consciousness (s. Tab. I. 1-4, 9-12, 18-21), with kammically unwholesome consciousness (greedy c. ib. 22-25), and with kammically neutral consciousness (ib. 40, 42-45, 57-60, 66-69, 72-76. 81-84), - Somanassa is not identical with pīti (q.v.).

upekkhā: 'equanimity', also called tatra-majjhattatā (q.v.), is an ethical quality belonging to the saṅkhāra-group (s. khandha) and should therefore not be confounded with indifferent feeling (adukkha-m-asukhā vedanā) which sometimes also is called upekkhā (s. vedanā).


https://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_d.htm

In my opinion, Arahants do not experience Somanass or Domanassa.
The way I understand they experience Upekkha.

It appears the OP spelling is incorrect for Domanassa.
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char101
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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by char101 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:12 am

In the list of 89/121 cittas in the abhidhamma, the term domanassa only appear associated with dosamula citta. So a generic term for domanassa could be dislike.

Of course we can have dislike towards sound, smell, touch, etc. so domanassa is not just towards mental object. But domanassa does not appear at the phassa (sensation) phase, but at later stage when we create a conception of the sense object on whether it is likable or not. Contrast that with dukkha which are used in the list of citta to denote physical pain appearing at the stage of phassa (sensation). When the body is pierced by a needle, the physical pain is dukkha, the dislike that appear later is domanassa. When exercising, sometimes there is physical pain, this is dukkha, but there is no dislike, therefore there is no domanassa.

An arahat has eliminated dosamula citta, thus no more domanassa. Physical pain on the other hand, is a result of kamma. While there are remains, kamma result is still effective, thus there is still dukkha.

SarathW
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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:15 am

the physical pain is dukkha
Perception feeling (pleasant, unpleasant and neutral feelings) and Dukkha are two different things in my opinion.
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DooDoot
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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:27 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:52 am
domanassa: According to the Abhidhamma, grief is always associated with antipathy and grudge, and therefore kammically unwholesome (akusala, q.v.) Cf. Tab. I. 30, 31.
The above appears to say domanassa is unpleasant feelings arising from mind contact of/with mental proliferations born from craving & attachment (aka papanca), per MN 38. In other words, the above appears to say 'domassana' does not refer to all unpleasant feelings arising from mind contact.
antipathy
/anˈtɪpəθi/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a deep-seated feeling of aversion.
grudge
/ɡrʌdʒ/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a persistent feeling of ill will or resentment resulting from a past insult or injury.
:alien:
char101 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:12 am
the term domanassa only appear associated with dosamula citta. So a generic term for domanassa could be dislike.
Again, this makes domanassa sound like a feeling born of papanca contact rather than a feeling born of primal mind contact.
char101 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:12 am
But domanassa does not appear at the phassa (sensation) phase, but at later stage when we create a conception of the sense object on whether it is likable or not.
Sounds reasonable.
char101 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:12 am
Contrast that with dukkha which are used in the list of citta to denote physical pain appearing at the stage of phassa (sensation). When the body is pierced by a needle, the physical pain is dukkha, the dislike that appear later is domanassa.
Good example.
char101 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:12 am
When exercising, sometimes there is physical pain, this is dukkha, but there is no dislike, therefore there is no domanassa.
OK.
char101 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:12 am
An arahat has eliminated dosamula citta, thus no more domanassa. Physical pain on the other hand, is a result of kamma. While there are remains, kamma result is still effective, thus there is still dukkha.
But can an arahant have painful mental feeling :shrug: ? For example, say an Arahant with Divine Eye observes insane murderers slaughtering children. While the Arahant only views aggregates & elements, the Arahant would observe the screaming pain [of the children aggregates/elements] and the mental insanity [of the murderer aggregates/elements], which probably causes a painful mental feeling. Are there any suttas where the Buddha has an unpleasant or disagreeable mental feeling? :shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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robertk
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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by robertk » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:42 am

An arahat may experience (like all of us) kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness) , an akusala vipaka (the result of unwholesome kamma) , which is accompanied by dukkha vedana (bodily painful feeling)..

What the arahat has eradicated, among other harmful elements, is the unpleasant feeling, Domanassa-sahagatam, associated with aversion, patigha-sampayuttam .

As patigha can be very slight, such as a mild bored feeling, or extremely intense, like rage and panic- so too the accompanying domanassa varies in intensity.

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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:44 am

robertk wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:42 am
What the arahat has eradicated, among other harmful elements, is the unpleasant feeling, Domanassa-sahagatam, associated with aversion, patigha-sampayuttam .
Sure. But what about unpleasant mental feeling without aversion? MN 38 & MN 148 appear to say an Arahant can experience unpleasant mental feeling at mind contact.
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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by robertk » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:07 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:44 am
robertk wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:42 am
What the arahat has eradicated, among other harmful elements, is the unpleasant feeling, Domanassa-sahagatam, associated with aversion, patigha-sampayuttam .
Sure. But what about unpleasant mental feeling without aversion? MN 38 & MN 148 appear to say an Arahant can experience unpleasant mental feeling at mind contact.
All feeling is mental - but dukkha vedana arises at the body sense . So in the case of the arahat he could be getting sawed in two by robbers and be experiencing extreme painful feeling , dukkha vedana. But he would not have any domanassa - the type of painful feeling associated with aversion, patigha.
while the Arahant only views aggregates & elements, the Arahant would observe the screaming pain [of the children aggregates/elements] and the mental insanity [of the murderer aggregates/elements], which probably causes a painful mental feeling.
No domanassa at all- only equanimity, or even pleasant feeling due to the intensity of the wisdom that the feeling might be accompanying .
T

For example when Moggalana smiled:
Moggallana and the monk Lakkhana were descending Vulture’s Peak. Moggallana, who had observed a peta (unhappy spirit) had smiled. Lakkhana, realizing that Moggallana had viewed something that he had not, questioned him. Moggallana agreed to give his answer when they were in the presence of the Buddha.

As they approached the Buddha, Lakkhana again questioned Moggallana as to why he had smiled. Moggallana replied that he had seen a spirit shaped like a huge snake engulfed in flames, screaming whilst being chased and pecked at by vultures. Moggallana had felt compassion for the suffering being and then relief in the knowledge that he himself would never in the future have such a birth, as this was his last birth. This relief had caused him to smile. Moggallana did not think that anyone would believe what he saw unless it was confirmed by the Buddha. He then went on to explain the kammic cause for such a birth. He said that in a former birth this spirit had been a farmer. He had a field, which he was ploughing close to where a Pacceka (silent) Buddha was residing. The townsfolk often crossed his field to visit the Pacceka Buddha. This upset the farmer and he tried all kinds of methods to dissuade the people from crossing his field. The multitude of devotees, however, ignored his instructions and continued to walk over his field.

The farmer had then watched for an opportunity to observe the Pacceka Buddha leaving his residence, whereupon he had destroyed his belongings and burnt his shelter. The devotees were furious when they found out that the farmer had destroyed the Pacceka Buddha’s shelter and belongings. They vented their anger on him by battering him to death. The farmer was reborn in the Avichi hell and after many thousands of years was reborn in Vulture’s Peak as the snake ghost (peta) engulfed in flames.

The Buddha confirmed Moggallana’s sighting and story by saying that He Himself had viewed the same spirit on the day He attained enlightenme
nt.

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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:28 am

robertk wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:07 am
No domanassa at all-
I think we have already defined what domanassa is, namely, a feeling that can arise after aversion.

However, about mere unpleasant mental feeling at mere mind contact, MN 152 says:
When they know a thought with their mind, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them.
manasā dhammaṃ viññāya uppajjati manāpaṃ, uppajjati amanāpaṃ, uppajjati manāpāmanāpaṃ.

If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ that’s what they do.
So sace ākaṅkhati: ‘paṭikūle appaṭikūlasaññī vihareyyan’ti, appaṭikūlasaññī tattha viharati.

If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do.
Sace ākaṅkhati: ‘appaṭikūle paṭikūlasaññī vihareyyan’ti, paṭikūlasaññī tattha viharati.

If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do.
Sace ākaṅkhati: ‘paṭikūle ca appaṭikūle ca appaṭikūlasaññī vihareyyan’ti, appaṭikūlasaññī tattha viharati.

If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and the repulsive,’ that’s what they do.
Sace ākaṅkhati: ‘appaṭikūle ca paṭikūle ca paṭikūlasaññī vihareyyan’ti, paṭikūlasaññī tattha viharati.

If they wish: ‘May I meditate staying equanimous, mindful and aware, rejecting both the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do.

Sace ākaṅkhati: ‘paṭikūlañca appaṭikūlañca tadubhayampi abhinivajjetvā upekkhako vihareyyaṃ sato sampajāno’ti, upekkhako tattha viharati sato sampajāno.

That’s how they are a noble one with developed faculties.
Evaṃ kho, ānanda, ariyo hoti bhāvitindriyo.

https://suttacentral.net/mn152/en/sujato
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char101
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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by char101 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:27 am
But can an arahant have painful mental feeling :shrug: ? For example, say an Arahant with Divine Eye observes insane murderers slaughtering children. While the Arahant only views aggregates & elements, the Arahant would observe the screaming pain [of the children aggregates/elements] and the mental insanity [of the murderer aggregates/elements], which probably causes a painful mental feeling. Are there any suttas where the Buddha has an unpleasant or disagreeable mental feeling? :shrug:
Like I have written above, the only citta which is associated with domanassa is dosamula citta (dosa is one of the 3 akusala roots: lobha, dosa, moha) which should have been completely eradicated by an arahat. Thus based on abhidhamma, it is an impossibility that an arahat can experience mental pain.

Domanassa which is vedana, or feeling, is a cetasika. Cetasika only appear alongside citta. It is a concomitant of citta, it cannot appear by itself.

An arahat would not be troubled seeing suffering of other beings, after all, every beings has their own kamma, has kamma as their own protection, the only person that can protect them are theirselves. At the absolute truth, there is even no being, pleasure and pain are just process, the result of ignorance and craving. Suffering when seeing the pain of other beings is after all akusala, it is not compassion (karuna). There is no mental pain associated with kusala-citta. There is no good/moral/kusala mental pain. All mental pain is associated with akusala citta.

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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:03 am

It appears the OP spelling is incorrect for Domanassa.
?
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DooDoot
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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:52 am

char101 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:42 am
Like I have written above, the only citta which is associated with domanassa is dosamula citta (dosa is one of the 3 akusala roots: lobha, dosa, moha) which should have been completely eradicated by an arahat. Thus based on abhidhamma, it is an impossibility that an arahat can experience mental pain.
The Buddha did not teach lobha, dosa & moha are the causes of feelings. The Buddha taught feelings are the causes of lobha, dosa & moha.

Please note: this subforum is not Abhidhamma subforum.
char101 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:42 am
An arahat would not be troubled seeing suffering of other beings, after all, every beings has their own kamma, has kamma as their own protection, the only person that can protect them are theirselves. At the absolute truth, there is even no being, pleasure and pain are just process, the result of ignorance and craving. Suffering when seeing the pain of other beings is after all akusala, it is not compassion (karuna). There is no mental pain associated with kusala-citta. There is no good/moral/kusala mental pain. All mental pain is associated with akusala citta.
Vedana does not mean to be "troubled". Vedana can arise from ignorance but vedana does not arising from craving. It is craving that arises from vedana. Vedana is also not suffering. The suttas plainly teaching Arahants experience unpleasant feelings; at least from the five physical sense doors.

Anyway, I think the topic has at least concluded 'domanassa' is a papanca feeling rather than a primal contact feeling. In other words, 'domanassa' is a feeling born from self-view. Where as ordinary vedana can become (but not always) causes of self-view.
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Re: What exactly is 'domassana'?

Post by sentinel » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:33 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:52 am
The Buddha taught feelings are the causes of lobha, dosa & moha.
Feelings are the Conditions of lobha dosa moha .
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

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