Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
frank k
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by frank k » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:10 am

auto wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:33 pm
frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:10 pm
auto wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:50 pm
sn48.40


what you do is argue amongst the variables that the variables contradict and then call Sutta corrupt because your chosen variable is the etalon.
Nothing to do with chosen word of translation. You didn't read the link I referred you to.
I won't continue discussion with you if you keep referring to B. sujato's heinously wrong translations of the 4 jhanas to make your points. You don't have to use my translation, you can use any of the other professional translators that translate the 4 jhanas correctly. Thanissaro, B. Bodhi, Rupert Gethin the President of Pali Text Society, are good ones to rely on, who translate according to EBT.

http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/v ... ndex.html
..
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,
is unchanged and same regardless to the changings of the themes around it. You could ask where the XX ceases to exists and then write this,
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,
now if i miss the point then say again what is it what makes you to think sn 48.40 is corrupt.

----
in your interpretations of the sukha is bodily. But that is not what defines the indriya in 3rd jhana, indriya is defined by the 'upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti..and it is mental.

sukha , and all 3 vedana originate from bodily, unless specified otherwise. Under 5 vedana scheme, sukha unqualified in some contexts could mean either somanassa indriya (mental happiness) or sukha indriya (physical happiness). But since in STED 4th jhana formula, the buddha refers explicitly to all 5 vedana indriya, and in STED 3rd jhana, which I"ve highlighted the key words here so no one can miss it,
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -2-2.html
He explicitly qualifies 3rd jhana sukha as "sukham ca kayena" (pleasure experienced with the body). I referred you earlier to 3 other credible translators of the EBT, and not just them, even B. Analayo translates kaya there as "bodily". It's not just my translation, it's unanimous among credible EBT translators.

And you still didn't read the article (not written by me) that compares SN 48.40 to its agama parallels. My corrected version of pali SN 48.40, you'll see matches exactly or very closely to one of the other schools, mula sarvastivada I think. I hadn't read that article in a long time, didn't read it or consult it when I made my corrections to SN 48.40, I just went by pali EBT standard pericopes.

corrected pali SN 48.40 here
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... pali.html
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Pulsar
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by Pulsar » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:50 am

frank k wrote 
More likely that SN 41.6 was earlier, and MN 44 was derived from that. The catechism style of MN 43 and MN 44, and that the suttas are not spoken by the Buddha, are pretty good indicators of some lateness. But all that doesn't mean it isn't legitimate Dhamma. Ultimately we still have to internally filter everything through 4 great standards (AN 4.180) to see if something is genuine DHamma vinaya
Thanks for your words dear frank k, I have read this many  times before of MN 44, but when you added MN 43, it made me rethink and last night, it solved a major riddle for me.
I had to spend quite a bit of time between Indriyasamyutta, Numerical discourses, and Cittasamyutta, to solve the problems created by MN 43 and 44.  Now these two seem to me like work done by Theravadin graduate students who were not quite familiar with the original teaching of the Buddha, but this is off topic, so I shall not delve into it.

Needless to say I am a bit taken aback at the words fed into the mouth of Sariputta, again this is not new in the late suttas. I still think the  biggest problem was created by adding so called arupas after the 4 jhanas, and before cessation. Is this not illegitimate? It  stands in total  contrast to how awakening is described in the Jhana series of DN 2. There is nothing in the earliest tier of suttas (including sutta nipata) that support such a structure.

Dear frank k regarding  'More likely that SN 41.6 was earlier, and MN 44 was derived from that'. How did you figure this out?
To me it appears Suttas in Cittasamyutta came later. For instance 1/5th of the  material of  MN 43 is built up to be make  Godatta sutta SN 41.7 in Cittasamyutta. It was kind of strange finding glaring errors last night. Reading Analayo's MN 43 helped. Sautrantikas were on to something, but their writings are lost.
In spite of the errors of transmission, all that I know, I owe it to Theravada transmission, and the tools they supplied to manage right concentration for oneself, and thus gain insights. Also the compilers had a challenge, they had no easy means of cross checking facts, like the ones involved in Middle Lengths, did they have access to Linked and Numerical Discourses etc?.
And Buddha said ultimate responsibility lies on the individual effort. And to get to right knowledge, there is no other way but via right concentration.

Thanks for the mention of AN 4.180. Here Buddha is instructing the monks to cross check the statements made by others saying they were the words of the Buddha.
an excerpt of the conclusion
'Surely, this is not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly enlightened one. It has been badly learned by this bhikkhu' Thus you should discard it
This may very well apply to some things said in MN 43, MN 44 and Cittasamyutta. I Paid attention to these last night, thanks to your timely comment. :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:56 pm

frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:21 am
Vism. uses that sutta to justify their claim that the body disappears before first jhana
The physical body appears to obviously dissappear with the first jhana because the suttas only say the 1st jhana has five factors, which are all mental factors. For example, if the jhana descriptions are compared to the Anapanasati Sutta, the Anapanasati Sutta unambiguously says rapture is experienced while knowing breathing in & out. Therefore, the rapture of Anapanasati is obviously not the rapture of jhana because the rapture of jhana is known not together with breathing but together with one-pointedness. Because individuals such as yourself & Puslar ignore this obvious distinction, the impression is a severe underestimation of what jhana actually is occurs.

As for the rest of your post, it offered no recourse to the suttas.
frank k wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:10 am
He explicitly qualifies 3rd jhana sukha as "sukham ca kayena" (pleasure experienced with the body). I referred you earlier to 3 other credible translators of the EBT, and not just them, even B. Analayo translates kaya there as "bodily". It's not just my translation, it's unanimous among credible EBT translators.
Sorry but you have been informed many times the word "kaya" does not necessarily mean "physical body". Thus, Bhikkhu Bodhi, for example, often errs in his contextual translations of "kaya", such as in SN 12.19, where he ridiculously translates: "So there is the duality of this body and external name and form. Contact depends on this duality [that excludes consciousness]". Any translator that believes "kaya" exclusively means "physical body" cannot be credible. For example, if "kaya" only meant "physical body" then the following Pali would be utterly nonsensical:
Suppose there were none of the features, attributes, signs, and details by which the physical body of mental phenomena :roll: is found. Would linguistic contact still be found in the category of physical phenomena?”

Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi nāmakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu tesu liṅgesu tesu nimittesu tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho rūpakāye adhivacanasamphasso paññāyethā”ti?

https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/sujato
If "kaya" only meant "physical body" then the suttas would be called Middle Length Physical Body (Majjhima Nikaya), Numerical Physical Body, Grouped Physical Body, Long Physical Body, etc. :)
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:50 am
dear frank k... problems created by MN 43 and 44. 
MN 43 & MN 44 are most amazing & important suttas. It appears you simply don't understand them.
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auto
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by auto » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:34 pm

frank k wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:10 am
sukha , and all 3 vedana originate from bodily, unless specified otherwise. Under 5 vedana scheme, sukha unqualified in some contexts could mean either somanassa indriya (mental happiness) or sukha indriya (physical happiness). But since in STED 4th jhana formula, the buddha refers explicitly to all 5 vedana indriya, and in STED 3rd jhana, which I"ve highlighted the key words here so no one can miss it,
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -2-2.html
He explicitly qualifies 3rd jhana sukha as "sukham ca kayena" (pleasure experienced with the body). I referred you earlier to 3 other credible translators of the EBT, and not just them, even B. Analayo translates kaya there as "bodily". It's not just my translation, it's unanimous among credible EBT translators.

And you still didn't read the article (not written by me) that compares SN 48.40 to its agama parallels. My corrected version of pali SN 48.40, you'll see matches exactly or very closely to one of the other schools, mula sarvastivada I think. I hadn't read that article in a long time, didn't read it or consult it when I made my corrections to SN 48.40, I just went by pali EBT standard pericopes.

corrected pali SN 48.40 here
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... pali.html
https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpres ... p_2005.pdf
It is not clear when somanassa and domanassa disappear.
The Uppat .ip at .ika Sutta in the Indriya Sam . yutta of the Sam . yutta Nikaya provides a different formulation of this issue.
So the issue is about interpreting the basic formula to get the order of the ceasing faculties correctly.
And assumption that the Suttas what are later works have their own ideas about it, like the Sutta sn 48.40.
The Avipar itaka version says that domanassa ceases in the first jhana. This conforms with the usual jhana formula, according to which one is free from unwholesome states, including domanassa, when entering the first jhana.
The foregoing passage of the Avipar itaka Sutra preserved in the Sanskrit and Chinese literature provides a plausible account of the order in which specific feelings cease in different jhanas, which fits in quite well with the usual jhana formula.
domanassa is required for to get rid of greed, greed is given up at first jhana and with it pain ceases.

if want to go to party but don't go, then the sadmindedness is what destroy the greed and pain stops(from wanting to go to the party).
The unwholesome states are if you had gone to party. States connected to kama.

i don't bother to read the entire pdf, because of lack of intellectual interest, it just doesn't arise so can't help it.(and its 30 pages so)
Likewise, somanassa and domanassa may refer to any pleasant and unpleasant mental feelings respectively.
but it isn't.
Commenting on the statement that the domanassa faculty ceases in the second jhana, Ven. Bodhi (2000: 1935) says, ‘‘This seems difficult to square with the usual jhana formula, which indicates that the first jhana is already free from all unwholesome states, including domanassa.’’
does really the basic formula indicate that the domanassa is absent? no and domanassa isn't unwholesome.

its just guesses. Its not a base for start tweaking Suttas. Which you already have done(on your own using same or similar formulas as in this pdf) you have changed domanassa from 2nd jhana to 1st jhana.

auto
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by auto » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:26 pm

i wonder is it not allowed to have different order?

the Sutta itself is even called 'irregular order'.

https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpres ... p_2005.pdf
In the usual jhana formula, the expression ‘with the abandoning of sukha and dukkha … a bhikkhu enters the fourth jhana’ seems to suggest that one abandons both sukha and dukkha at the moment of entering the fourth jhana, whereas according to the Avipar itaka version dukkha already ceases in the second jhana
what you gonna do about it?

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by auto » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:51 pm

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.6/en/sujato
When touched by painful feeling they look forward to enjoying sensual pleasures.
So dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno kāmasukhaṃ abhinandati.Why is that?Taṃ kissa hetu?

Because an uneducated ordinary person doesn’t understand any escape from painful feeling apart from sensual pleasures.Na hi so, bhikkhave, pajānāti assutavā puthujjano aññatra kāmasukhā dukkhāya vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ,
This hints that there is pain and kāmasukhā alleviates the pain.

ordinary person doesn't know about Rupa sukha.
..
They don’t truly understand feelings’ origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape.So tāsaṃ vedanānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn48.40/en/sujato
It’s not possible for the faculty of pain to arise without a foundation, a source, a condition, or a reason.’ Tañca animittaṃ anidānaṃ asaṅkhāraṃ appaccayaṃ dukkhindriyaṃ uppajjissatī’ti—netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.
They understand the faculty of pain, its origin, its cessation, and where that faculty of pain that’s arisen ceases without anything left over.
So dukkhindriyañca pajānāti, dukkhindriyasamudayañca pajānāti, dukkhindriyanirodhañca pajānāti, yattha cuppannaṃ dukkhindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati tañca pajānāti.
the logic fits with sn 36.6

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by frank k » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:29 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:50 am

Dear frank k regarding  'More likely that SN 41.6 was earlier, and MN 44 was derived from that'. How did you figure this out?
To me it appears Suttas in Cittasamyutta came later. For instance 1/5th of the  material of  MN 43 is built up to be make  Godatta sutta SN 41.7 in Cittasamyutta. It was kind of strange finding glaring errors last night. Reading Analayo's MN 43 helped. Sautrantikas were on to something, but their writings are lost.
In spite of the errors of transmission, all that I know, I owe it to Theravada transmission, and the tools they supplied to manage right concentration for oneself, and thus gain insights. Also the compilers had a challenge, they had no easy means of cross checking facts, like the ones involved in Middle Lengths, did they have access to Linked and Numerical Discourses etc?.
And Buddha said ultimate responsibility lies on the individual effort. And to get to right knowledge, there is no other way but via right concentration.
I don't think anyone knows for sure, but just that in general SN collection is earlier than MN, which is earlier than DN.
But each collection, has earlier and later portions. Even abhidhamma pitaka, has preserved some early stratas that are more reliable some of the later suttas, so one has to study carefully, don't come to conclusions too quickly.

IMO the arupas are an optional side path, but I don't anything wrong with them, just as Buddha highly encouraged 4bv brahma vihara practice, which he did not invent.
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by frank k » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:36 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:56 pm
frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:21 am
Vism. uses that sutta to justify their claim that the body disappears before first jhana
The physical body appears to obviously dissappear with the first jhana because the suttas only say the 1st jhana has five factors, which are all mental factors. For example, if the jhana descriptions are compared to the Anapanasati Sutta, the Anapanasati Sutta unambiguously says rapture is experienced while knowing breathing in & out. Therefore, the rapture of Anapanasati is obviously not the rapture of jhana because the rapture of jhana is known not together with breathing but together with one-pointedness. Because individuals such as yourself & Puslar ignore this obvious distinction, the impression is a severe underestimation of what jhana actually is occurs.
show the suttas where it says first jhana has 5 factors. There's only two places that I"m aware of, where the suttas says that, and it's NOT the Buddha saying it, it's Sariputta, the unfortunate reluctant mouthpiece used by later Abhidhamma. Now you want to say those 2 dubious references, outweigh the hundreds of references to the STED first jhana formula, and the hundreds of references to the 7sb awakening factors?

I can't even follow the reasoning you're talking about with piti and rapture. It's hard to tell if you're being serious and just so self deluded you believe your own misinterpretations and misunderstandings.
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:14 pm

frank k wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:36 pm
show the suttas where it says first jhana has 5 factors. There's only two places that I"m aware of, where the suttas says that, and it's NOT the Buddha saying it, it's Sariputta, the unfortunate reluctant mouthpiece used by later Abhidhamma. Now you want to say those 2 dubious references, outweigh the hundreds of references to the STED first jhana formula, and the hundreds of references to the 7sb awakening factors?
The above is more unsubstantiated utterances. The 7sb appear to provide no detailed description of 'samadhi' as 'jhana' in the standard formula. The 1st jhana only has five factors, as follows:
Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my (1) mind concentrated & single (cittaṃ ekaggaṃ). Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: (2) rapture & (3) pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by (4) directed thought & (5) evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
frank k wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:36 pm
I can't even follow the reasoning you're talking about with piti and rapture. It's hard to tell if you're being serious and just so self deluded you believe your own misinterpretations and misunderstandings.
Yes, you can't follow the reasoning. The suttas say in many places consciousness cannot arise without a sense object. Since the stock suttas on jhana say: "My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single: passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ"; it seems obvious if the body is "unaroused", it cannot serve as an object of consciousness . Therefore, it appears obvious there is no consciousness of the physical body or breathing in jhana. Instead, the mind is one-pointed (citta ekaggaṃ) upon itself.

Where as in Anapanasati, which is taught differently to jhana, there is consciousness of breathing. This appears to indicate a level of samadhi & tranquillity not as profound as jhana, as follows:
[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'

MN 118
Its all written plainly in black & white in the suttas. It appears not understood how overestimation of personal attainment & underestimation of real jhana occurs. The suttas appear to tell us in black & white there are at least four levels of rapture, which are:

1. Rapture upon hearing the teachings of liberation.

2. Rapture when first successfully practising mindfulness & seeing the truth - rapture factor of enlightenment

3. Rapture of anapanasati, which appears to equate to the commentary concept of neighbourhood concentration

4. Rapture of jhana, which appears to equate to the commentary concept of attainment concentration.

:smile:
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by Dharmasherab » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:52 am

Be careful not to over-conceptualise these teachings. The path to enlightenment is free from concepts. So trying to create more concepts in your mind could become the biggest obstacle you will have to your path.

Best to meditate more and experience it will be my kind advice to you.

Best wishes :meditate:

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:40 pm

Dharmasherab wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:52 am
Be careful not to over-conceptualise these teachings. The path to enlightenment is free from concepts.
It seems the Pali Buddha did not teach or emphasise the above. The above not only sounds like Mahayana but, worse, it also sounds like conceptualisation. In other words, it seems the concept of non-conceptualisation is also a conceptualisation. :)
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by frank k » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:06 pm

Learn how to count, and learn what the standard 1st jhana formula is. "ekaggata" is not in the STED first jhana formula.
Your 'reasoning' about body consciousness (viññana) disappearing before first jhana is complete rubbish. There are two suttas where the buddha explicitly says, the consciousness of 5 sensory faculties disappear, and it's in the 4 arupa samadhis (which are not 4 jhanas where rupa is still sensed).


DooDoot wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:14 pm
frank k wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:36 pm
show the suttas where it says first jhana has 5 factors. There's only two places that I"m aware of, where the suttas says that, and it's NOT the Buddha saying it, it's Sariputta, the unfortunate reluctant mouthpiece used by later Abhidhamma. Now you want to say those 2 dubious references, outweigh the hundreds of references to the STED first jhana formula, and the hundreds of references to the 7sb awakening factors?
The above is more unsubstantiated utterances. The 7sb appear to provide no detailed description of 'samadhi' as 'jhana' in the standard formula. The 1st jhana only has five factors, as follows:
Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my (1) mind concentrated & single (cittaṃ ekaggaṃ). Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: (2) rapture & (3) pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by (4) directed thought & (5) evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.
The part where you quote ekagga, is part of the 7sb awakening factor sequence. For example, here in MN 19:

(code phrase for successful entry into 4 jhānas)
“āraddhaṃ kho pana me, bhikkhave,
“aroused indeed in me, monks
(7sb → 3. 🏹) vīriyaṃ ahosi a-sallīnaṃ,
(7sb → 3. 🏹), vigor was un-flagging,
(7sb → 1. 🐘) upaṭṭhitā sati a-sam-muṭṭhā,
(7sb → 1. 🐘) established remembering, not-forgetful,
(7sb → 5. 🌊) passaddho kāyo a-sāraddho,
(7sb → 5. 🌊) Pacified body, un-aroused,
(7sb → 6. 🌄) samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ.
(7sb → 6. 🌄) Undistractability-and-lucidity (of) mind, singular.
(STED 4 jhānas)
(STED 1st Jhāna)
🚫💑 vivicc’eva kāmehi
🚫💑 Quite-withdrawn (from) sensuality,
🚫😠 vivicca a-kusalehi dhammehi
🚫😠 withdrawn (from) un-skillful Dhamma [teachings & qualities],
(V&V💭) sa-vitakkaṃ sa-vicāraṃ
(V&V💭) With-directed-thought, with-evaluation,
😁🙂 viveka-jaṃ pīti-sukhaṃ
😁🙂 withdrawal-born rapture-&pleasure,
🌘 paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
🌘 first Jhāna (he) enters, dwells.


In DN, there's about 10 suttas or more, similar to MN 19 but even more expanded out to show the equivalence of samadhi-sambojjhanga, as being equivalent to 4 jhanas. And there's a few more places where that's pretty explicit AN 10 or AN 11.

The 10 or so DN references are all the same as DN 2:
(7sb awakening factors)
(7sb → 1-3 🐘💭🕵️🏹) Tassime pañca nīvaraṇe pahīne attani samanupassato
(7sb → 1-3 🐘💭🕵️🏹) Seeing that the hindrances have been given up in them,
pā-mojjaṃ jāyati,
profuse-mirth is born.
(7sb → 4. 😁) pa-muditassa pīti jāyati,
(7sb → 4. 😁) Being profusely-mirthful rapture (is) born,
(7sb → 5. 🌊) pīti-manassa kāyo passambhati,
(7sb → 5. 🌊) (with) en-raptured-mind (the) body (is) pacified,
(7sb → 5.5 🙂) passaddha-kāyo sukhaṃ vedeti,
(7sb → 5.5 🙂) (with) pacified-body, they experience pleasure.
(7sb → 6. 🌄) sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
(7sb → 6. 🌄) (in) pleasure, the mind becomes undistractible-&-lucid.
4.3.2.5. First jhāna
4.3.2.5. Paṭhamajhāna
4.3.2.5. First jhāna
🚫💑 so vivicc’eva kāmehi
🚫💑 Quite-withdrawn (from) sensuality,
🚫😠 vivicca a-kusalehi dhammehi
🚫😠 withdrawn (from) un-skillful Dhamma [teachings & qualities],
(V&V💭) sa-vitakkaṃ sa-vicāraṃ
(V&V💭) With-directed-thought, with-evaluation,
😁🙂 viveka-jaṃ pīti-sukhaṃ
😁🙂 withdrawal-born rapture-&pleasure,
🌘 paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
🌘 first Jhāna (he) enters, dwells.
So imameva kāyaṃ vivekajena pītisukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati, nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa vivekajena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti.
They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

Pulsar
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by Pulsar » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:56 pm

frank k wrote
I don't think anyone knows for sure, but just that in general SN collection is earlier than MN, which is earlier than DN.

that helps, but again it is O' so complicated, because of what you say below
But each collection, has earlier and later portions. Even abhidhamma pitaka, has preserved some early stratas that are more reliable than some of the later suttas, so one has to study carefully

I understand, also the earliest stratum of abhidhamma had no reference to a set of steps called 4 arupas that got tucked into later jhana series.
It provides important clues as to what was early buddhist meditation,
is far more useful than some late suttas. In early abhidhamma, things are concise. 
For instance Contact and nature of contact is explained fluidly in relation to Aharas, an understanding that  is essential to figure out what comes afterwards, Vedana, Sanna etc.
In the Mahanidana sutta, this part is missing, which leaves some theravadins
wondering.  
As you say although DN is the last, it has one of the earliest and most reliable sutta on jhana DN 2. If one followed only this, all the insights one needs, plus cessation is right there.
The 4th jhana is inclusive of the immaterial sphere. The canon refers to this, here and there, but not in a way the non-careful reader can grasp,
You wrote 
don't come to conclusions too quickly
 
The one conclusion of mine regarding a section of MN 43, that was botched, it was
with good reason, and not without good reason.
The question on The Five faculties comes up in a sutta in the Indriyasamyutta, and this time it is the Buddha who responds,  differently.
The flawed section in MN 43 reads like this
The five faculties
Friend, there are these five faculties each with a separate range, a separate domain, and they do not experience one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty.
Now what do these five faculties — each with a separate range, a separate domain, not experiencing one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty — have as their [common] arbitrator?
What experiences [all] their ranges & domains?
Friend, these five faculties — each with a separate range, a separate domain, not experiencing one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty — have the intellect as their [common] arbitrator.
The intellect is what experiences [all] their ranges & domains.""Now, these five faculties — the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty: In dependence on what do they remain standing?
These five faculties — the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty — remain standing in dependence on vitality [2] etc etc...
it goes on and ends up with a simile of a lamp.
When Buddha responds to the same query (in indriyasamutta)
he does not go into vitality nor heat, he stays true to jhanic mindfulness, which makes sense to me.
A synopsis of his explanation
the five faculties take recourse in the mind (not in vitality) and the mind experiences their resort and domain. Mind takes recourse in mindfulness jhanic. And this mindfulness (jhana) takes recourse in Nibbana
Buddha ends the discourse by saying this questioner, after death will
not take birth again. Pretty inspiring. No mention of heat and vitality there.
 
You wrote 
IMO the arupas are an optional side path, but I don't see anything wrong with them
The problem I see is that it is not presented as an "Optional side path" in the
canon.

You wrote 
just as Buddha highly encouraged 4bv brahma vihara practice, which he did not invent
With introducing brahma viharas no such damage is done. Buddha modified the 4bv, extended 4bv to make it immeasurable.
This does not get in the way of understating Jhana meditation. Brahma viharas thus becomes a natural part of the meditator engaged in jhana, due its immeasurable quality.
Thanks frank k. I will go into the flawed parts of MN 44 on a later day. Copying and pasting, I tend to make errors when I copy and paste, and it wears me out. if I find errors in what I write now, will correct later. I am starved, it is lunch time.
:candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Pulsar
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by Pulsar » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:58 pm

Dharmasherab wrote
Be careful not to over-conceptualise these teachings. The path to enlightenment is free from concepts. So trying to create more concepts in your mind could become the biggest obstacle you will have to your path.

Best to meditate more and experience it will be my kind advice to you
the kind advice, is truly appreciated :heart:

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