What sutta actually equates 8 spokes of a Dhamma Wheel with noble eight fold path?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Post Reply
frank k
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

What sutta actually equates 8 spokes of a Dhamma Wheel with noble eight fold path?

Post by frank k » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:24 pm

SN 56.11, according to tradition, the first sutta, Dhamma-cakka-pavattana (dhamma wheel turning)
doesn't ever explicitly say the Dhamma wheel is the 8 factors of 8aam, or how many spokes are in the wheel. Is there actually a sutta that states this, or is this just an assumption we've all made?
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

BKh
Posts: 350
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:43 am

Re: What sutta actually equates 8 spokes of a Dhamma Wheel with noble eight fold path?

Post by BKh » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:59 am

I'm not aware of any in the Pali root texts. Could it be a later Mahayana thing?

Side note... Have you ever considered including a list of all the abbreviations you use in your signature. That way we wouldn't have to install a frankkAbbr.dat package every time we want to read your posts. ;-)
ReadingFaithfully.org Daily Practice with the Suttas | BuddhaRupa Images of the Buddha across time and space

frank k
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: What sutta actually equates 8 spokes of a Dhamma Wheel with noble eight fold path?

Post by frank k » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:38 pm

BKh wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:59 am
I'm not aware of any in the Pali root texts. Could it be a later Mahayana thing?

Side note... Have you ever considered including a list of all the abbreviations you use in your signature. That way we wouldn't have to install a frankkAbbr.dat package every time we want to read your posts. ;-)
Good idea Venerable. I've updated my signature with hyperlink to STED.
I know you've read all the suttas a lot, so your input is definitely appreciated.
Maybe having 8 spokes for wheels in India was a standard well known? I know nothing about wheel making, but it seems having 8 spokes, would be easier to eyeball and make sure everything is straight, at right angles. Start with 4 spokes on the wheel, they're all at 90 degrees, easy to eyeball. Then add another 4 spokes offset from the first four, but again the 2nd four spokes it's easy to eyeball the perpendicular 90 degree angles for correctness within that frame
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

JohnK
Posts: 815
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: What sutta actually equates 8 spokes of a Dhamma Wheel with noble eight fold path?

Post by JohnK » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:23 pm

Here is a link to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation of the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN56_11.html
Thanissaro's footnote #6:
The discussion in the four paragraphs beginning with the phrase, “Vision arose.…” takes two sets of variables—the four noble truths and the three levels of knowledge appropriate to each—and lists their twelve permutations. In ancient Indian philosophical and legal traditions, this sort of discussion is called a wheel. Thus, this passage is the Wheel of Dhamma from which the discourse takes its name.
This suggests an original 12-spoked "wheel" and the wheel itself being a conventional metaphor for a type of explication.
(Edit: Just interesting that we might use the metaphor of a table for this -- a 4x3 (12-celled) table.)
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests