Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:10 am

In Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond on page 104, Ajahn Brahm writes -
The Buddha taught two types of satipaṭṭhāna. The first type is supported by jhāna and leads to enlightenment in a short time. The 2nd type without jhana produces valuable insights, especially ones that enable you to let go and come closer to jhana, but does not lead to enlightenment. Both types are found in the suttas.
Which satipaṭṭhāna are these and where can these be found in the suttas? Thanks

:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:53 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:10 am
In Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond on page 104, Ajahn Brahm writes -
The Buddha taught two types of satipaṭṭhāna. The first type is supported by jhāna and leads to enlightenment in a short time. The 2nd type without jhana produces valuable insights, especially ones that enable you to let go and come closer to jhana, but does not lead to enlightenment. Both types are found in the suttas.
Which satipaṭṭhāna are these and where can these be found in the suttas? Thanks

:reading:
Is this a reference to the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta? I think that can be practiced in both ways, with one approach emphasizing jhana and the other approach emphasizing satipatthana.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by salayatananirodha » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:26 pm

Does this sutta clearly answer your question? https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Screen Shot 2018-07-12 at 12.21.51.png
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

SarathW
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:48 pm

Interesting question DD.
I also ask this question in different ways many times.
I do not think there is a direct reference to this except Jhana Sutta and Samadhi Sutta.
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Lankamed
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by Lankamed » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:36 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:26 pm
Does this sutta clearly answer your question? https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... htmlScreen Shot 2018-07-12 at 12.21.51.png
I've wondered what the fourth one means. Is it somebody who gains quick insight while listening to dhamma or contemplating dhamma? Or is it dry insight. I always thought dry insight fell under "tandem" method.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:45 am

Lankamed wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:36 am
salayatananirodha wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:26 pm
Does this sutta clearly answer your question? https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... htmlScreen Shot 2018-07-12 at 12.21.51.png
I've wondered what the fourth one means. Is it somebody who gains quick insight while listening to dhamma or contemplating dhamma? Or is it dry insight. I always thought dry insight fell under "tandem" method.
Venerable ñāṇananda offers an explanation for this in 'The Law of Dependent Arising'.
Screen Shot 2018-07-12 at 22.43.17.png
Screen Shot 2018-07-12 at 22.41.25.png
Screen Shot 2018-07-12 at 22.41.10.png
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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DooDoot
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:45 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:53 pm
Is this a reference to the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta? I think that can be practiced in both ways, with one approach emphasizing jhana and the other approach emphasizing satipatthana.
Thanks D. However, since Ajahn Brahm says there is no awareness of breathing in jhana, I doubt he can be referring to the Anapanasati Sutta (which has awareness of breathing at every stage of development).
salayatananirodha wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:26 pm
Does this sutta clearly answer your question? https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... 4/an04.170
Probably not because AB appears to be referring to a Satipatthana that uses jhana.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:55 am

How about here? http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... rn.pts.htm
The previous teachers of the bodhisatta
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

rightviewftw
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:05 am

As i understand it :
Satipatthana is a not a practice any more than 5 Faculties are a practice, the Satipatthana is something to be developed:
"Even though this wish may not occur to a monk who dwells devoting himself to development — 'O that my mind might be released from effluents through lack of clinging!' — still his mind is released from the effluents through lack of clinging. Why is that? From developing, it should be said. Developing what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path.
In other words there is no 8FNP meditation or Seven Factors of Enlightenment meditation but there are practices and doings which fulfill and develop various aspects of development.
The Four Frames of Reference

"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
Here it is explained that work in the first tetrad develops Kayanupassana
"[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
Work in the second tetrad is associated with development of Vedananupassana. Fwiw the commentary associates this tetrad with full absorbtion in jhāna, but the experience of rapture, joy, and calm is also associated with the access to jhāna (upacāra-jhāna).
"[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
Work in the the third tetrad is associated with development of Cittanupassana.
"[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
Work in the fourth tetrad is obviously associated with development of Dhammanupassana. Ideally according to the commentary;
one is to take up work in the fourth tetrad only after one has attained the four jhānas. If one can adhere strictly to this order of practice, that is ideal, but if one cannot follow this sequence one may proceed to vipassanā, or insight, from the third jhāna. It is also permissible to proceed to vipassanā from the second jhāna, or from the first, or from the access stage prior to full attainment of jhāna, or after one has overcome the wandering tendencies of the mind.
However it is not necessary for all personality types, some people can train this right away dependent on prior development and faculties.
"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination.

rightviewftw
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:31 pm

Regarding the 4th tetrad commentary i said "Not necessary" to dvelop jhana is what i meant.

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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:39 pm

More to show that the work in second tetrad has to do with vedana[and perceptions];
"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

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DooDoot
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:49 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:39 pm
More to show that the work in second tetrad has to do with vedana[and perceptions];
"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
"[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
The English words "mental fabrications" come from the Pali "citta sankhara". Since "citta" is the 3rd tetrad, I doubt the above translation is related to the 2nd tetrad because a "citta fabrication" should relate to the 3rd tetrad.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rightviewftw
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:52 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:49 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:39 pm
More to show that the work in second tetrad has to do with vedana[and perceptions];
"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
"[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
The English words "mental fabrications" come from the Pali "citta sankhara". Since "citta" is the 3rd tetrad, I doubt the above translation is related to the 2nd tetrad.
Given that the second tetrad is about feelings, it has to be vedana no matter if it is of cittasankhara. That's how i understand it anyway.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:54 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:52 pm
i think they just overlap, what is felt is perceived.
No, it is unlikely they overlap, which is why there are 4 separate tetrads. The word "sankhara" is probably translated wrongly. The term "citta sankhara" refers to "feeling & perception" therefore each of the four stages in the 2nd tetrad are obviously about experiencing feelings (vedana).

"In-&-out breaths are bodily sankhara. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal sankhara. Perceptions & feelings are mind sankhara."

The word "citta" means "mind" rather than "mental".
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:05 am
"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

Here it is explained that work in the first tetrad develops Kayanupassana
What is meant by the words highlighted in red? :shrug:

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DooDoot
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:03 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:05 am
Work in the second tetrad is associated with development of Vedananupassana. Fwiw the commentary associates this tetrad with full absorbtion in jhāna, but the experience of rapture, joy, and calm is also associated with the access to jhāna (upacāra-jhāna).
OK... so you appear to be saying there are two types of concentration that can give rise to two levels of feelings. But does this result in two types of satipaṭṭhāna? :shrug:

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