What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Bundokji
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by Bundokji » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:24 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:09 am
Any opinions? What do we think about this?
I just fail to understand the importance of the subtle distinction you are making. It gives the impression that certain links of DO is more relevant to end suffering than others, while by definition, they all depend on and affect each other.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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dylanj
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by dylanj » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:51 am

susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:12 am

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:24 am
I just fail to understand the importance of the subtle distinction you are making.
The distinction is as follows:

1. There are thoughts that just pop or erupt ('asava') out of the mind by themselves; such as the distracting thoughts in meditation.

2. Then there are further thoughts which think about the thoughts that pop out of the mind by themselves.

For example, a bad memory spontaneously pops out of the mind, such as "I hate him". Then another thought judges that thought: "I am a Buddhist; I should not have hateful thoughts". The 2nd thought is attachment (upadana).
Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies.

MN 18

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Bundokji
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by Bundokji » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:12 am
Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:24 am
I just fail to understand the importance of the subtle distinction you are making.
The distinction is as follows:

1. There are thoughts that just pop or erupt ('asava') out of the mind by themselves; such as the distracting thoughts in meditation.

2. Then there are further thoughts which think about the thoughts that pop out of the mind by themselves.

For example, a bad memory spontaneously pops out of the mind, such as "I hate him". Then another thought judges that thought: "I am a Buddhist; I should not have hateful thoughts". The 2nd thought is attachment (upadana).
Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies.

MN 18
So, thoughts that pops up by themselves (which you described as spontaneous) are not volitional but natural as a response to a certain stimuli, while thoughts judging other thoughts are born out of a sense of ownership of the original thought not seeing the not-self nature of it. Is this correct?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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DooDoot
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:56 am

Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:42 am
So, thoughts that pops up by themselves (which you described as spontaneous) are not volitional but natural as a response to a certain stimuli...
Actually, I am referring to thoughts that appear even prior to stimuli; that is; thoughts that just pop out of the brain/mind.
while thoughts judging other thoughts are born out of a sense of ownership of the original thought not seeing the not-self nature of it. Is this correct?
Yes.

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DooDoot
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:57 am

Thank you for the link, Dylan. It says, which I agree with, in principle:
“And what, monks, are preparations? Monks, there are these three preparations. Body preparation, speech preparation, thought preparation. These, monks, are called preparations.”

It is noteworthy that in this definition, the term saṅkhāra is used in the singular as Kāyasaṅkhāro (body preparation), vacīsaṅkhāro (speech preparation) and cittasaṅkhāro (thought preparation). These three are defined in the Dhamma as follows:

Body preparation – in breath and outbreath
Speech preparation – thinking and pondering
Thought preparation – perception and feeling

So then in the Vibhaṅga Sutta 12 where the Buddha defines each of the twelve links, the term saṅkhāra is defined as threefold. In breathing and out breathing cannot be taken as kamma that prepares another birth. Likewise thinking and The Law of Dependent Arising pondering generally rendered as initial and sustained thought as well as perception and feeling are not reckoned as kamma. In fact whoever is wishing to put an end to existence (bhava) has to appease them. That is why they are called preparations.
I don't agree with the below, although I don't fully comprehend the relevance of "mutual inter-relation between consciousness and name and form":
Of course one may ask: “Well then where do ignorance and preparations come in? That we have already explained. The very non-understanding of the mutual inter-relation between consciousness and name and form is itself ignorance. The activity sustained by that ignorance is preparations
The author continues:
We mentioned all this in particular because there is some confusion in explaining kamma in the context of Paṭicca Samuppāda by attributing it to something in the past.

However one can still raise a question regarding the significance of what are called ‘puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra and āneñjābhisaṅkhāra and their relevance to saṅkhāra: In that context, what is called ‘abhisaṅkhāra’ are special preparations, that is to say, specially performed kamma. In the former context, saṅkhāra referred to such activities as in-breathing and out-breathing which are like the ‘bedrock’ of saṅkhāras. But here what is called abhisaṅkhāra are volitional preparations where intention comes in. Puññābhisaṅkhāra are meritorious special preparations, apuññābhisaṅkhāra are demeritorious special preparations and āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are imperturbable special preparations, which have to do with the meditative absorptions – which bring about rebirth in Brahma worlds. Of course these three forms of preparations are also the outcome of ignorance, but by dispelling that ignorance in this very life those forces of preparations are stilled. These special preparations are kept up by egotism. All in all, kamma is dependently arisen. Our aim should be the cessation of kamma.

pg 259 http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... ev_1.0.pdf
It is difficult for me to follow this author due to their manner of speaking. However:

1. Based on the 1st quote above, it appears the author is saying 2nd nidana 'sankhara' is not 'kamma'. If so, I agree.

2. Based on the 3rd quote above, it is difficult for me to clearly discern what the author is attempting to explain. However, if the author continues to assert 'sankhara' is not 'kamma' (which does not appear to be the case but might be the case) then the author might be agreeing with my hypothesis on this topic that "puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra and āneñjābhisaṅkhāra" are forms of clinging (upadana) or egoism, i.e., 9th nidana.

:alien:

James Tan
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by James Tan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:04 pm

Hi there,
FYI
If you take sankhara as kamma , once you attained arahant state , you have no more in and out breathing , no thinking and no feeling perception ! That could not be possible .
The description of the weeds is actually not DO !
This is called analysis theory .

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DooDoot
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:52 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:04 pm
...once you attained arahant state , you have no more in and out breathing , no thinking and no feeling perception ! That could not be possible .
This depends on how the word 'nirodha' is defined. There have been many explanations why the word "cessation" is not an accurate translation of nirodha. In short, Nibbana appears to be defined as the "calming" ("samatho") of sankhara rather than the destruction (khayo) of sankhara, as follows:
sabba­saṅ­khā­ra­sama­tho sabbū­padhipa­ṭi­nissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ

the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn26

James Tan
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by James Tan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:47 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:52 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:04 pm
...once you attained arahant state , you have no more in and out breathing , no thinking and no feeling perception ! That could not be possible .
This depends on how the word 'nirodha' is defined. There have been many explanations why the word "cessation" is not an accurate translation of nirodha. In short, Nibbana appears to be defined as the "calming" ("samatho") of sankhara rather than the destruction (khayo) of sankhara, as follows:
sabba­saṅ­khā­ra­sama­tho sabbū­padhipa­ṭi­nissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ

the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn26
Well , cessation of perception feeling is above arupa jhana , most of the suttas refer to fourth jhana as the requirements . Not even arupa jhana is conducive conditions due to too absorbed .

Saengnapha
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:45 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:47 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:52 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:04 pm
...once you attained arahant state , you have no more in and out breathing , no thinking and no feeling perception ! That could not be possible .
This depends on how the word 'nirodha' is defined. There have been many explanations why the word "cessation" is not an accurate translation of nirodha. In short, Nibbana appears to be defined as the "calming" ("samatho") of sankhara rather than the destruction (khayo) of sankhara, as follows:
sabba­saṅ­khā­ra­sama­tho sabbū­padhipa­ṭi­nissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ

the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn26
Well , cessation of perception feeling is above arupa jhana , most of the suttas refer to fourth jhana as the requirements . Not even arupa jhana is conducive conditions due to too absorbed .
According to Bhante P, there are 2 'paths' to nirodha samapatti, both involving the 4th jhana. The 1st was the Buddha's path. From his 2 teachers, he learned to enter the 4th jhana. He was then instructed to remove the attention from what is seen into empty space, Infinite Space=Akasanañcayatana. Let go of that and enter Viññanañcayatana=Infinite perception. Let go of that and enter Akiñcaññayatana=the realm of Nothingness.

His teachers told him that this was as far as they had come, but their teacher had attained something further. The Buddha then entered the realm of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception=Nevasaññanasaññayatana. He could go no further, stopped, and turned to asceticism which didn't work. He returned to the jhanas, the ayatanas (formless realms) until the realm of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception=Nevasaññanasaññayatana, and let go of that entering Nirodha Samapatti. When he awoke out of that, the process reversed itself and he was able to see how DO created the world and the self. He calls this Paññavimutti.

In the case of Sariputta, at the 4th jhana, Bhante P explains that there is a 'shortcut'. :D which he calls Abhiññāvimutti, super-perception. The process of perception and paticca samupadda can be comprehended from this point. There is a sutta that he refers to which I cannot remember.
The video is here. 30 minutes, if you care to watch.

James Tan
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by James Tan » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:20 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:45 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:47 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:52 am

This depends on how the word 'nirodha' is defined. There have been many explanations why the word "cessation" is not an accurate translation of nirodha. In short, Nibbana appears to be defined as the "calming" ("samatho") of sankhara rather than the destruction (khayo) of sankhara, as follows:

Well , cessation of perception feeling is above arupa jhana , most of the suttas refer to fourth jhana as the requirements . Not even arupa jhana is conducive conditions due to too absorbed .
According to Bhante P, there are 2 'paths' to nirodha samapatti, both involving the 4th jhana. The 1st was the Buddha's path. From his 2 teachers, he learned to enter the 4th jhana. He was then instructed to remove the attention from what is seen into empty space, Infinite Space=Akasanañcayatana. Let go of that and enter Viññanañcayatana=Infinite perception. Let go of that and enter Akiñcaññayatana=the realm of Nothingness.

His teachers told him that this was as far as they had come, but their teacher had attained something further. The Buddha then entered the realm of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception=Nevasaññanasaññayatana. He could go no further, stopped, and turned to asceticism which didn't work. He returned to the jhanas, the ayatanas (formless realms) until the realm of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception=Nevasaññanasaññayatana, and let go of that entering Nirodha Samapatti. When he awoke out of that, the process reversed itself and he was able to see how DO created the world and the self. He calls this Paññavimutti.

In the case of Sariputta, at the 4th jhana, Bhante P explains that there is a 'shortcut'. :D which he calls Abhiññāvimutti, super-perception. The process of perception and paticca samupadda can be comprehended from this point. There is a sutta that he refers to which I cannot remember.
The video is here. 30 minutes, if you care to watch.
Hi , I have seen the video before , anyway thanks .
One thing to highlight , what do you think if a person can only attain to first jhana ? I hope you or others can see this problem with jhana !
The question is , liberation didn't lies in jhana as the Core principle , but , instead it depends on the 8 right path where the right Samadhi is something very essential and totally different from the ordinary jhana . What makes your jhana "right" is the Key point !
Otherwise , all other ascetic could be very easy to have attained liberation .

Ps . As I mentioned before , many teachings were corrupted , and most of the scholars if not all could not really break the DO with satisfaction . Of course , we really appreciate what all the scholars had contributed , but , scholars didn't have the genuine attainment . However , many people only admire the scholars without knowing their limitations .

Saengnapha
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:14 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:20 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:45 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:47 am


Well , cessation of perception feeling is above arupa jhana , most of the suttas refer to fourth jhana as the requirements . Not even arupa jhana is conducive conditions due to too absorbed .
According to Bhante P, there are 2 'paths' to nirodha samapatti, both involving the 4th jhana. The 1st was the Buddha's path. From his 2 teachers, he learned to enter the 4th jhana. He was then instructed to remove the attention from what is seen into empty space, Infinite Space=Akasanañcayatana. Let go of that and enter Viññanañcayatana=Infinite perception. Let go of that and enter Akiñcaññayatana=the realm of Nothingness.

His teachers told him that this was as far as they had come, but their teacher had attained something further. The Buddha then entered the realm of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception=Nevasaññanasaññayatana. He could go no further, stopped, and turned to asceticism which didn't work. He returned to the jhanas, the ayatanas (formless realms) until the realm of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception=Nevasaññanasaññayatana, and let go of that entering Nirodha Samapatti. When he awoke out of that, the process reversed itself and he was able to see how DO created the world and the self. He calls this Paññavimutti.

In the case of Sariputta, at the 4th jhana, Bhante P explains that there is a 'shortcut'. :D which he calls Abhiññāvimutti, super-perception. The process of perception and paticca samupadda can be comprehended from this point. There is a sutta that he refers to which I cannot remember.
The video is here. 30 minutes, if you care to watch.
Hi , I have seen the video before , anyway thanks .
One thing to highlight , what do you think if a person can only attain to first jhana ? I hope you or others can see this problem with jhana !
The question is , liberation didn't lies in jhana as the Core principle , but , instead it depends on the 8 right path where the right Samadhi is something very essential and totally different from the ordinary jhana . What makes your jhana "right" is the Key point !
Otherwise , all other ascetic could be very easy to have attained liberation .

Ps . As I mentioned before , many teachings were corrupted , and most of the scholars if not all could not really break the DO with satisfaction . Of course , we really appreciate what all the scholars had contributed , but , scholars didn't have the genuine attainment . However , many people only admire the scholars without knowing their limitations .
I'm not sure what you are asking or stating about 1st jhana. Anyone able to enter 1st jhana will be greeted with a pleasant surprise. Theoretically, it is at the 4th jhana where there is a possibility of beginning to understand the process of perception or continue through the 'formless jhanas', the ayatanas, until nirodha samapatti. Personally, I'm not a jhana counter. You have to put in a lot of work in orienting yourself to the wholesome, before any of this can ever be a real part of your experience. That's why view is so important.

James Tan
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by James Tan » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:26 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:14 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:20 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:45 am

According to Bhante P, there are 2 'paths' to nirodha samapatti, both involving the 4th jhana. The 1st was the Buddha's path. From his 2 teachers, he learned to enter the 4th jhana. He was then instructed to remove the attention from what is seen into empty space, Infinite Space=Akasanañcayatana. Let go of that and enter Viññanañcayatana=Infinite perception. Let go of that and enter Akiñcaññayatana=the realm of Nothingness.

His teachers told him that this was as far as they had come, but their teacher had attained something further. The Buddha then entered the realm of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception=Nevasaññanasaññayatana. He could go no further, stopped, and turned to asceticism which didn't work. He returned to the jhanas, the ayatanas (formless realms) until the realm of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception=Nevasaññanasaññayatana, and let go of that entering Nirodha Samapatti. When he awoke out of that, the process reversed itself and he was able to see how DO created the world and the self. He calls this Paññavimutti.

In the case of Sariputta, at the 4th jhana, Bhante P explains that there is a 'shortcut'. :D which he calls Abhiññāvimutti, super-perception. The process of perception and paticca samupadda can be comprehended from this point. There is a sutta that he refers to which I cannot remember.
The video is here. 30 minutes, if you care to watch.
Hi , I have seen the video before , anyway thanks .
One thing to highlight , what do you think if a person can only attain to first jhana ? I hope you or others can see this problem with jhana !
The question is , liberation didn't lies in jhana as the Core principle , but , instead it depends on the 8 right path where the right Samadhi is something very essential and totally different from the ordinary jhana . What makes your jhana "right" is the Key point !
Otherwise , all other ascetic could be very easy to have attained liberation .

Ps . As I mentioned before , many teachings were corrupted , and most of the scholars if not all could not really break the DO with satisfaction . Of course , we really appreciate what all the scholars had contributed , but , scholars didn't have the genuine attainment . However , many people only admire the scholars without knowing their limitations .
I'm not sure what you are asking or stating about 1st jhana. Anyone able to enter 1st jhana will be greeted with a pleasant surprise. Theoretically, it is at the 4th jhana where there is a possibility of beginning to understand the process of perception or continue through the 'formless jhanas', the ayatanas, until nirodha samapatti. Personally, I'm not a jhana counter. You have to put in a lot of work in orienting yourself to the wholesome, before any of this can ever be a real part of your experience. That's why view is so important.
No , the question is can a person with first jhana attaining nibbana ? Is there any disciple of the Buddha with lower jhana attained liberation ?
Perhaps someone may help to provide sutta reference ?

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DooDoot
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Re: What are constructed formations in SN 12.51?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:15 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:47 am
Well , cessation of perception feeling is above arupa jhana , most of the suttas refer to fourth jhana as the requirements . Not even arupa jhana is conducive conditions due to too absorbed .
Yes. Cessation of perception & feeling is above arupa jhana but is not Nibbana. Nibbana is both calming & non-craving & non-clinging towards perception & feeling.
sabba­saṅ­khā­ra­sama­tho sabbū­padhipa­ṭi­nissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ

the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn26
Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element....

https://suttacentral.net/en/iti44

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