Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:02 pm

Coyote wrote:What were these other unconditioned elements?
I may be necroposting here big time, but another user brought this thread to my attention and I think that it is a very interesting topic that I could contribute something to, in case anyone else had questions that related to the OP:
Coyote wrote:In a recent talk Ven. Sujato references the fact that the Theravadin school is the only early Buddhist school that recognised only one unconditioned element, nibbana. Other schools apparently had lists of other phenomena they considered unconditioned, besides nibbana.
The most infamous of other historical Buddhist schools to consider the existence of unconditioned dhammas a point of doctrinal significance was the Sarvāstivāda, because they (or most of them) went as far as ascribing unconditionedness and quasi-eternal persistence to all dhammas (a very radical claim for Buddhist metaphysics). In addition to this doctrinal point, in other Sarvāstivāda texts sometimes only four ranks of dhammas are described as unconditioned: dhammas of cessation, dhammas of mind, dhammas of mental objects, and dhammas of mental consciousness.
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby cappuccino » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:58 am

The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated, perishes, and does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:27 pm

cappuccino wrote:The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated, perishes, and does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
The standard Buddhist responce to this is: because the saint never existed, he can never be annihilated.

I don't find it exceptionally convincing.
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby cappuccino » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:58 pm

The Blessed One would never say that the saint does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:30 pm

cappuccino wrote:The Blessed One would never say that the saint does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
Isn't this a bit of a misquotation? You forgot to add a "[...]", which is always a good idea to include when you alter a quote, yes?
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby cappuccino » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:38 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Isn't this a bit of a misquotation?


No.
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:56 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Isn't this a bit of a misquotation?


No.
I've been looking for you quote and I cannot find it. There seems to be several lines close to what you wrote, but none with that exact same contents.

Where did you find this quote in the sutta?
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby cappuccino » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:20 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Where did you find this quote in the sutta?


"the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.085.than.html
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby cappuccino » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:34 pm

The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby R1111 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:Space.

imo, experiential manifestation of Space is conditioned by perception.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby Coëmgenu » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:25 am

cappuccino wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Where did you find this quote in the sutta?


"the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.085.than.html
Yes, that is the quote in its proper context. :anjali:
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby maranadhammomhi » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:25 pm

Coyote wrote:In a recent talk Ven. Sujato references the fact that the Theravadin school is the only early Buddhist school that recognised only one unconditioned element, nibbana.


This is controversial within Theravāda. The Kathāvatthu says nibbāna is the only unconditioned element, the Milindapañha says space is unconditioned as well. The former position is proposed by Moggaliputta Tissa, the latter by Nāgasena. Theravāda considers both to be arahants.

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby maranadhammomhi » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:30 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:The standard Buddhist responce to this is: because the saint never existed, he can never be annihilated.

I don't find it exceptionally convincing.


Standard Buddhist response? No, I don't buy it...there's nothing authoritative about that response & I've only seen it expressed from modern western theravādins...to me it seems to be yet another nihilist view.

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cappuccino
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby cappuccino » Sat May 06, 2017 9:55 pm

If you never existed, this is extreme.
If you always existed… as you, this is another extreme.

Nothing is self… those extremes fail.
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 08, 2017 5:39 am

Greetings,

maranadhammomhi wrote:This is controversial within Theravāda. The Kathāvatthu says nibbāna is the only unconditioned element, the Milindapañha says space is unconditioned as well. The former position is proposed by Moggaliputta Tissa, the latter by Nāgasena. Theravāda considers both to be arahants.

Indeed it is controversial. I believe Milindapañha is taking a materialist stance of naive realism when speaking of "space" as asankhata. As such I disagree with it, because the only thing that sankhata applies to is phenomenological experience (i.e. not objective physical elements or the lack thereof). The experience of space, even in its most sublime and infinite jhanic form, is still sankhata.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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