Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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beeblebrox
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by beeblebrox » Tue May 13, 2014 7:40 pm

arhat wrote:OK sorry I misunderstood your interpretation. So death is necesary for completion of nibbana, until then it would not be full/complete? So the ordinary nibbana depends on conditions to become parinibbana?
It's not nibbana that becomes parinibbana, but the extinguishment of the five khandhas (which recognized the nibbana) that is called parinibbana.

There also is no death that would happen, nor non-death (not even both, nor neither). It would be ignorance to try to view it to mean that there is an arahant that would die, or continue to live.

:anjali:

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:50 pm

If we are going to discuss such details, I would point out that according to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the use of the term parinibbana as what happens at death is not correct. See his introduction to the SN, quoted here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p209545

I gather that what people here are calling parinibbana, should be called nibbana without remainder.

:anjali:
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by culaavuso » Tue May 13, 2014 7:54 pm

arhat wrote:Is there a source for the belief that unconditioned refers to nibbana rather than something else?
SN 43.12: Asaṅkhata Sutta wrote: Katamañca, bhikkhave, asaṅkhataṃ? Yo, bhikkhave, rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, asaṅkhataṃ.

And what, bhikkhus, is the unconditioned? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the unconditioned.
SN 38.1: Nibbāna Sutta wrote: “‘Nibbānaṃ, nibbānan’ti, āvuso sāriputta, vuccati. Katamaṃ nu kho, āvuso, nibbānan”ti?
“Yo kho, āvuso, rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo– idaṃ vuccati nibbānan”ti.

"Nibbāna, nibbāna" it is said, friend Sāriputta. What, friend, is nibbāna?
The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called nibbāna
SN 43.12: Asaṅkhata Sutta wrote: Katamo ca, bhikkhave, asaṅ­kha­ta­gāmi­maggo? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sammādiṭṭhiṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodha­nissitaṃ vos­sagga­pari­ṇāmiṃ. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, asaṅ­kha­ta­gāmi­maggo … pe … katamo ca, bhikkhave, asaṅ­kha­ta­gāmi­maggo? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sammāsaṅkappaṃ bhāveti … pe … sammāvācaṃ bhāveti … pe … sammākammantaṃ bhāveti … pe … sammāājīvaṃ bhāveti … pe … sammāvāyāmaṃ bhāveti … pe … sammāsatiṃ bhāveti … pe … asaṅkhatañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi asaṅ­kha­ta­gāmiñca maggaṃ.

… “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops right view, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release: this is called the path leading to the unconditioned….”

… “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops right intention … right speech … right action … right livelihood … right effort … right mindfulness … right concentration, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release: this is called the path leading to the unconditioned.

“Thus, bhikkhus, I have taught you the unconditioned and the path leading to the unconditioned.

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:59 pm

See also this discussion, which perhaps has some relevance:
Arahants in Early Buddhism
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 30&start=0
Parts of MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile may have been added later to bolster the Theravada point of view that an Arahant cannot "fall away", an opinion not shared by all of the early schools.

Ven Sujato notes that the Chinese Agama version of the sutta does not have the line:

And it is impossible for that bhikkhu to fall away from that perpetual deliverance.

and the known Sarvastivada nikayas do not have this sutta at all.
Whether liberation is permanent or not was a point of disagreement between sects, so this line may be a late addition to the Theravada version.
:anjali:
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by pegembara » Wed May 14, 2014 5:03 am

1. Isn't space conditioned? It is dependent on non-space elements. Form and emptiness are dependently co-arisen and lean on each other. Hence they do not differ.

2. Nibbana is extinction of greed, hatred and delusion, not the extinction of an existent "thing" which is a delusion. For example when a caterpillar transform into a butterfly, where did the caterpillar go? To the North? South? East? West?

"And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'"

"If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?"

"...yes..."

"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."

"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
When we start to identify with our bodied and minds and think of this life as ours, then we are similar to traveler who doesn’t want to leave the hotel. We have a wrong idea about this temporary stopping place, and we find ourselves always in struggle and conflict. Children of the same parents end up fighting, people in the same village cannot get along, citizens of the same country are at odds with each other, all because of this attachment to what they think is a self and things belonging to the self.

So the Buddha said to come back and look at the body. That is one Dharma to study. There is nothing we should undo or change. We say,”One who sees sankhara and purged of attachment has happiness.” Mind is sankhara. Body is sankhara. Sankhara are not us or ours. Thus, those who see sankhara are at peace. They see the mind and body not as self, but only as sankhara.

If something arise into existence, it is just sankhara. There is no being or person, no one who is happy or suffering. It is only sankhara. It is purged of happiness or suffering. There is nobody who is affected. If you see sankhara like this, you see Dharma. Nobody is any sort of entity, not a person, an individual, or a being. There is no one who is elated or miserable, no one who get angry or attached, no one who dies. Things arise. Sankhara are like that. Seeing Dharma is like that. Whatever arises in the minds of yogins, they will know the Dharma to that extent. If your view is like this, it is called merit. All merits come together here at the point of peace.

http://kellylps.blogspot.com/2008/05/be ... -chah.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:02 pm

Coyote wrote:What were these other unconditioned elements?
I may be necroposting here big time, but another user brought this thread to my attention and I think that it is a very interesting topic that I could contribute something to, in case anyone else had questions that related to the OP:
Coyote wrote:In a recent talk Ven. Sujato references the fact that the Theravadin school is the only early Buddhist school that recognised only one unconditioned element, nibbana. Other schools apparently had lists of other phenomena they considered unconditioned, besides nibbana.
The most infamous of other historical Buddhist schools to consider the existence of unconditioned dhammas a point of doctrinal significance was the Sarvāstivāda, because they (or most of them) went as far as ascribing unconditionedness and quasi-eternal persistence to all dhammas (a very radical claim for Buddhist metaphysics). In addition to this doctrinal point, in other Sarvāstivāda texts sometimes only four ranks of dhammas are described as unconditioned: dhammas of cessation, dhammas of mind, dhammas of mental objects, and dhammas of mental consciousness.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:58 am

The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated, perishes, and does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
Don't wait, the time will never be just right

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:27 pm

cappuccino wrote:The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated, perishes, and does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
The standard Buddhist responce to this is: because the saint never existed, he can never be annihilated.

I don't find it exceptionally convincing.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:58 pm

The Blessed One would never say that the saint does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
Don't wait, the time will never be just right

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:30 pm

cappuccino wrote:The Blessed One would never say that the saint does not exist after death.
Yamaka Sutta
Isn't this a bit of a misquotation? You forgot to add a "[...]", which is always a good idea to include when you alter a quote, yes?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:38 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Isn't this a bit of a misquotation?
No.
Don't wait, the time will never be just right

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:56 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Isn't this a bit of a misquotation?
No.
I've been looking for you quote and I cannot find it. There seems to be several lines close to what you wrote, but none with that exact same contents.

Where did you find this quote in the sutta?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:20 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Where did you find this quote in the sutta?
"the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Don't wait, the time will never be just right

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:34 pm

Don't wait, the time will never be just right

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:Space.
imo, experiential manifestation of Space is conditioned by perception.

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