Snp 4.12 Cula-viyuha Sutta: The Lesser Array

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

Moderator: mikenz66

User avatar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska

Snp 4.12 Cula-viyuha Sutta: The Lesser Array

Post by jcsuperstar » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:20 am

Snp 4.12 PTS: Sn 878-894
Cula-viyuha Sutta: The Lesser Array
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
"Dwelling on
their own views,
different skilled people say:
'Whoever knows this, understands Dhamma.
Whoever rejects this, is
Thus quarreling, they dispute:
'My opponent's a fool & unskilled.'
Which of these statements is true
when all of them say they are skilled?"
"If, in not accepting
an opponent's doctrine,
one's a fool, a beast of inferior discernment,
then all are fools
of inferior discernment —
all of these
who dwell on their views.
But if, in siding with a view,
one's cleansed,
with discernment made pure,
intelligent, skilled,
then none of them
are of inferior discernment,
for all of them
have their own views.

I don't say, 'That's how it is,'
the way fools say to one another.
They each make out their views to be true
and so regard their opponents as fools."

"What some say is true
— 'That's how it is' —
others say is 'falsehood, a lie.'
Thus quarreling, they dispute.
Why can't contemplatives
say one thing & the same?"

"The truth is one,[1]
there is no second
about which a person who knows it
would argue with one who knows.
Contemplatives promote
their various personal truths,
that's why they don't say
one thing & the same."

"But why do they say
various truths,
those who say they are skilled?
Have they learned many various truths
or do they follow conjecture?"

"Apart from their perception
there are no
constant truths
in the world.[2]
Preconceiving conjecture
with regard to views,
they speak of a pair: true
& false.
Dependent on what's seen,
& sensed,
dependent on precepts & practices,
one shows disdain [for others].
Taking a stance on his decisions,
praising himself, he says,
'My opponent's a fool & unskilled.'
That by which
he regards his opponents as fools
is that by which
he says he is skilled.
Calling himself skilled
he despises another
who speaks the same way.

Agreeing on a view gone out of bounds, drunk with conceit, thinking himself perfect, he has consecrated, with his own mind, himself as well as his view. If, by an opponent's word, one's inferior, the opponent's of inferior discernment as well. But if, by one's own word one's an attainer-of-wisdom, enlightened, no one among contemplative's a fool. 'Those who teach a doctrine other than this are lacking in purity, imperfect.' That's what the many sectarians say, for they're smitten with passion for their own views. 'Only here is there purity,' that's what they say. 'In no other doctrine is purity,' they say. That's how the many sectarians are entrenched, speaking firmly there concerning their own path. Speaking firmly concerning your own path, what opponent here would you take as a fool? You'd simply bring quarrels on yourself if you said your opponent's a fool with an impure doctrine. Taking a stance on your decisions, & yourself as your measure, you dispute further down into the world. But one who's abandoned all decisions creates in the world quarrels no more."
1."The truth is one": This statement should be kept in mind throughout the following verses, as it forms the background to the discussion of how people who preconceive their conjectures speak of the pair, true and false. The Buddha is not denying that there is such a thing as true and false. Rather, he is saying that all entrenched views, regardless of how true or false their content might be, when considered as events in a causal chain behave in line with the truth of conditioned phenomena as explained in the preceding discourse. If held to, they lead to conceit, conflict, and states of becoming. When they are viewed in this way — as events rather than as true or false depictions of other events (or as events rather than signs) — the tendency to hold to or become entrenched in them is diminished.
2.On the role of perception in leading to conflicting views, see the preceding discourse.
See also: AN 10.93; AN 10.96.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

User avatar
Posts: 8504
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Snp 4.12 Cula-viyuha Sutta: The Lesser Array

Post by cooran » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:47 am

Hello all,

This reminds me of the Pasura Sutta: ... .than.html" onclick=";return false;

with metta
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
Site Admin
Posts: 19067
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Snp 4.12 Cula-viyuha Sutta: The Lesser Array

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:55 am


Whilst not explicitly stated, there's an undercurrent of clinging to views throughout this sutta.

When you do not cling to a view, what is there to defend?

If someone disagrees with you, what does it matter?

Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Snp 4.12 Cula-viyuha Sutta: The Lesser Array

Post by rowyourboat » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:09 am

Expect little from the world (including achievements, love, justice, agreement on views, being treated like a human being..!)

Expect a lot from your mind (in terms of striving in the path, otherwise it is easy to fall into laziness)
With Metta

& Upekkha


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests