MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:17 pm

Greetings Ben,
300: Gold and silver are excluded from the things subject to sickness, death, and sorrow, but they are subject to defilement, according to MA, because they can be alloyed with other metals of lesser worth

-- Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Nanamoli, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: a translation of the Majjhima Nikaya
I must say that this particular explanation does seem like a case of missing the forest for the trees. As I see it, the section about acquisitions is for the purpose of distinguishing between a noble search and an ignoble search, as an introduction to the Buddha's pursuit of enlightenment. To think that the Buddha would begin a Dhamma talk on himself by arbitrarily indicating that gold can be alloyed with other metals of lesser worth, seems strange to say the least.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Ben » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Hi Retro

Acquisitions in the sense that they are 'requisites for existence', that which would bind one to future existence. Sure.
As for gold and silver - The note 300 comes at the end of the paragraph 8:
And what may be said to be subject to sickness? Wife and children are subject to sickness, men and women slaves, goats and sheep, fowl and pigs, elephants, cattle, horses and mares are subject to sickness. These acquisitions are subject to sickness, and one who is tied to these things, infatuated with them, and utterly committed to them, being himself subject to sickness, seeks what is also subject to sickness
Gold and silver are not mentioned until paragraph 11 which is on defilement and is, for all intents and purposes, identical with the previous paragraphs. Venerable Bodhi's note then, explains why gold and silver were mentioned here yet not mentioned elsewhere. Gold and silver can be 'defiled' or alloyed with other metals. So, they are in this section and not the others as they are not living beings.
What the Buddha is doing is going through and enumerating all the things that constitute material security, those possessions which denote material wealth, the mundane 'pursuit of happiness' which is the 'ignoble search'. And it is an ignoble search because these possessions are subject to birth, aging, sickness, death, defilement. Also remember, that the Buddha was talking from his own viewpoint of his own search that led to his enlightenment.
Cheers

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:16 pm

Greetings Ben,

OK, but don't forget what Jechbi quoted above...
The Burmese, Sri Lankan, and PTS editions of the Canon exclude gold and silver from the list of objects subject to illness, death, and sorrow, apparently on the grounds that they themselves do not grow ill, die, or feel sorrow. The Thai edition of the Canon includes gold and silver in the list of objects subject to illness, death, and sorrow in the sense that any happiness based on them is subject to change because of one's own illness, death, and sorrow.
It seems odd that the lists should be changed part way through the suttas as to me this seems inconsistent with how suttas generally read. Whether it's a valid fear or not, I'm a little concerned that perhaps some editions of the canon might have actually dropped the words from the sutta because of the commentary exposition, and that in light of the commentarial exposition, the words in the sutta no longer made sense.

Hopefully I'm wrong of course.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Ben » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:19 pm

Thanks for that, I didn't see Jechi's note above.

I don't know. Perhaps someone who is familiar with the textual history of the Tipitaka can explain.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by kc2dpt » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:It seems odd that the lists should be changed part way through the suttas as to me this seems inconsistent with how suttas generally read.
I have encountered a number of suttas in which there is a subtle difference in the repetition. One that comes to mind is the Advice to Rahula. The bit about confessing is absent from misdeeds of thought.
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by jcsuperstar » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:12 am

this is interesting... how do you even find out who dropped or who added?

i guess it would seem absurd to add gold and silver...
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by gavesako » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:06 pm

Thanissaro Bhikkhu's talk about the Noble Search:

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/0403 ... Crises.mp3

"What is really worth searching for in life?"


(My own Pali name also comes from this Sutta, by the way... see my signature.) :idea:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Chiyo » Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:55 am

Hi, Everyone -

Regretfully, I don't have anything of substance to add. Quite the opposite, actually, I'm here as a student with a lot to learn. Probably, I'm going to be all eyes and ears, you won't hear from me much. And in that light, I just wanted to take the opportunity to thank everyone for their offerings and participation - I'm grateful and look forward to learning from all of you.

Many thanks.
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Do not see the full realization in one teaching, one phenomena, one body, one land or one sentient being. You should see the full realization everywhere, in all places. - Sakyamuni Buddha

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Jesse Smith
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very beginning of Sutta

Post by Jesse Smith » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:58 pm

Here's are a few phrases from the very beginning of the sutta. Any insight on their significance would be appreciated.

1. Ananda refers to Rammaka's hermitage as "pleasing" and "delightful". He then says it would be good if the Buddha went there "out of sympathy". Does Ananda call the hermitage "pleasing" because he knows a group of bhikkus will gather there with the wish to hear the Dhamma?

2. The Buddha "acquiesced through silence." Is there any significance to this rather than a verbal "yes"?

3. "So the Blessed One went to the hermitage of Rammaka the brahman. Now at that time a large number of monks had gathered in the hermitage of Rammaka the brahman for a Dhamma discussion. The Blessed One stood outside the door waiting for the discussion to end. On knowing that the discussion had ended, clearing his throat, he tapped at the door. The monks opened the door for him. Entering the hermitage of Rammaka the brahman, the Blessed One sat down on a seat made ready. As he was sitting there, he addressed the monks: "For what discussion are you gathered together here? In the midst of what discussion have you been interrupted?"

"Lord, our interrupted Dhamma discussion was about the Blessed One himself, and then the Blessed One arrived."

So there is already a Dhamma discussion going on among the Bhikkus themselves. The Buddha waits for it to "end", but the sutta further goes on to say the Buddha knows it has ended. Then the discussion is described as having been "interrupted". When I first read this sutta, I was expecting the bhikkus to say, "No, you have not interrupted the discussion. It has ended." Is this just one particular subject of their discussion had ended, and a pause in the discussion was taking place?

4. The Buddha clears his throat and taps on the door. This whole sequence of waiting for the discussion to end, knowing it has ended, clearing his throat, and tapping on the door seems like an intentionally formal process. It seems like there's some significance in how it is presented, perhaps an example of how an introduction or approach to the Dhamma is to be conducted.

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by adeh » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:08 am

I think the episode displays the Buddha's great respect for the Dhamma, His not wanting to interrupt a discussion on the Dhamma.

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:13 am

Greetings Jesse,

In response to your above selections of text, here are my thoughts...

1. I think he's just suggesting they go there, but without wanting to direct the Buddha about what to do

2. No particularly... that's just how it happened back in the day

3/4. Perhaps this means that he was waiting for a break in the conversation. If there is any Dhammic significance I would just put it down to politeness.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:47 pm

Greetings,

:reading:

This study session is now closed.

If you wish to pursue anything further in relation to this sutta, please start a new topic in the appropriate sub-form.

If you have any comments or suggestions regarding the process, please place them in the pinned thread in the Study Group forum for that purpose.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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