SN 21.1 Kolita Sutta. With Kolita.

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SN 21.1 Kolita Sutta. With Kolita.

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:10 am

SN 21.1 Kolita Sutta. With Kolita.
Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato


Moggallāna reflects that second absorption is the true noble silence, and the Buddha encourages him to develop it.
https://suttacentral.net/sn21.1/

So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. There Venerable Mahāmoggallāna addressed the mendicants: “Reverends, mendicants!” “Reverend,” they replied.

Venerable Mahāmoggallāna said this: “Just now, reverends, as I was in private retreat this thought came to mind: ‘They speak of this thing called “noble silence”. What then is this noble silence?’ It occurred to me: ‘As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is called noble silence.’ And so, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected were stilled, I was entering and remaining in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by placing the mind beset me.

Then the Buddha came up to me with his psychic power and said: ‘Moggallāna, Moggallāna! Don’t neglect noble silence, brahmin! Settle your mind in noble silence; unify your mind and bring it to immersion in noble silence.’ And so, after some time, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected were stilled, I entered and remained in the second absorption … So if anyone should be rightly called a disciple who attained to great direct knowledge with help from the Teacher, it’s me.”

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Re: SN 21.1 Kolita Sutta. With Kolita.

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:18 am

Notes from Bhikkhu Bodhi.

Kolita was Mahāmoggallāna’s personal name, Moggallāna being derived from his clan name. The present sutta is nearly identical with SN 40.2 and must be simply a variant on the latter, formulated in terms of noble silence rather than the second jhāna. As Spk makes clear, the sutta refers back to Moggallāna’s week of striving for arahantship.

  • “Here, friends, while I was alone in seclusion, a reflection arose in my mind thus: ‘It is said, “noble silence, noble silence.” What now is noble silence?’
    • Spk explains that the second jhāna is called noble silence (ariya tuṇhībhāva) because within it thought and examination (vitakka-vicārā) cease, and with their cessation speech cannot occur. At SN 41.6 (IV 293,24-26) thought and examination are called the verbal formation (vacīsaṅkhāra), the mental factors responsible for articulation of speech. But, Spk adds, when the Buddha says “either speak on the Dhamma or observe noble silence” (e.g., at MN I 161,32-33 MN 26), even attention to a meditation subject can be considered noble silence.
  • “If, friends, one speaking rightly could say of anyone: ‘He is a disciple who attained to greatness of direct knowledge with the assistance of the Teacher,’ it is of me that one could rightly say this.”
    • Spk: It is said that by this means, over seven days, the Teacher helped the elder to develop concentration on occasions when it was tending to decline (hānabhāgiya) and thus led him to “greatness of direct knowledge” (mahābhiññatā), i.e., to the six direct knowledges.

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Re: SN 21.1 Kolita Sutta. With Kolita.

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:56 pm

I'm disappointed to not get any comments about the translation of vitakka and vicāra in this sutta. :tongue:

V&V are present in the first jhana, but not the second and are translated here as "placing the mind and keeping it connected", wheres other translators use "thought and examination".

This is one of the Suttas that frankk discusses in detail regarding the translation of those terms in one of his many posts on Sutta Central's forum:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/sn ... ions/10859
See also this thread for a long discussion: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=28489 on Bhikkhu Sujato's blog post: https://sujato.wordpress.com/2012/12/06 ... -in-jhana/

This passage:
‘idha bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
is translated by Bhikkhu Sujato as:
‘As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.
https://suttacentral.net/sn21.1/en/sujato#2.6
Bhikkhu Bodhi has:
[“Then, friends, it occurred to me:] ‘Here, with the subsiding of thought and examination, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. [This is called noble silence.’]
Bhikkhu Bodhi uses the traditional translation of vitakka and vicāra: "thought and examination". Bhikkhu Sujato translates as: "placing the mind and keeping it connected".

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Re: SN 21.1 Kolita Sutta. With Kolita.

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:16 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:56 pm
Bhikkhu Bodhi uses the traditional translation of vitakka and vicāra: "thought and examination". Bhikkhu Sujato translates as: "placing the mind and keeping it connected".
Bhikkhu Sujato appears to present similar ideas in his History of Mindfulness, using initial application (vitakka) and sustained application (vicāra). This appears contrary to Ajahn Brahmavamso. Personally, I am inclined towards the view of Ajahn Brahmavamso. It appears unlikely vitakka & vicāra would have the meaning Bhikkhu Sujato is suggesting if ekaggatā has already been established by the 1st jhana. Also, I recall reading somewhere Bhikkhu Sujato saying a stream-enterer has developed jhana. The impression is Bhikkhu Sujato is teaching 'Jhana-Lite' or "Soft-Jhana'.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 21.1 Kolita Sutta. With Kolita.

Post by auto » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:37 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:18 am
Notes from Bhikkhu Bodhi.

Kolita was Mahāmoggallāna’s personal name, Moggallāna being derived from his clan name. The present sutta is nearly identical with SN 40.2 and must be simply a variant on the latter, formulated in terms of noble silence rather than the second jhāna. As Spk makes clear, the sutta refers back to Moggallāna’s week of striving for arahantship.

  • “Here, friends, while I was alone in seclusion, a reflection arose in my mind thus: ‘It is said, “noble silence, noble silence.” What now is noble silence?’
    • Spk explains that the second jhāna is called noble silence (ariya tuṇhībhāva) because within it thought and examination (vitakka-vicārā) cease, and with their cessation speech cannot occur. At SN 41.6 (IV 293,24-26) thought and examination are called the verbal formation (vacīsaṅkhāra), the mental factors responsible for articulation of speech. But, Spk adds, when the Buddha says “either speak on the Dhamma or observe noble silence” (e.g., at MN I 161,32-33 MN 26), even attention to a meditation subject can be considered noble silence.
  • “If, friends, one speaking rightly could say of anyone: ‘He is a disciple who attained to greatness of direct knowledge with the assistance of the Teacher,’ it is of me that one could rightly say this.”
    • Spk: It is said that by this means, over seven days, the Teacher helped the elder to develop concentration on occasions when it was tending to decline (hānabhāgiya) and thus led him to “greatness of direct knowledge” (mahābhiññatā), i.e., to the six direct knowledges.
the "A"vitakka. It doesn't mean annihilation. If you fail in something then someone corrects you and you then get it how to do it but you won't accept that then that is A.
"A" means you turn the meaning around in your mind that the issue would come isolated and then you can do sati, mindfulness on a kayasankhara, the 3rd jhana name,
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 4-041.html
ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukha·vihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati
you seclude yourself from the issue till everything is calmed down and then knowledge can arise, what is cittasankhara. If you would accept the knowledge from when it is passed down or said to you first time then you would be arrested via sensual pleasure the same pleasure what you have secluded yourself from.
i guess,
noble silence is because you can't answer because if you would you would fall back, would adhere to lower sensual pleasure.

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Re: SN 21.1 Kolita Sutta. With Kolita.

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:42 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:37 pm
the "A"vitakka. It doesn't mean annihilation. If you fail in something then someone corrects you and you then get it how to do it but you won't accept that then that is A.
...
I'm sorry, I'm having difficulty following your post. Are you saying that you disagree with Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Sujato's translations, and the interpretation of the Commentary?

I'm afraid I'll have to discussion of that to those more expert in Pali than myself.

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Re: SN 21.1 Kolita Sutta. With Kolita.

Post by auto » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:27 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:42 pm
auto wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:37 pm
the "A"vitakka. It doesn't mean annihilation. If you fail in something then someone corrects you and you then get it how to do it but you won't accept that then that is A.
...
I'm sorry, I'm having difficulty following your post. Are you saying that you disagree with Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Sujato's translations, and the interpretation of the Commentary?

I'm afraid I'll have to discussion of that to those more expert in Pali than myself.

:heart:
Mike
https://suttacentral.net/sn21.1/en/bodhi
“Then, friends, with the subsiding of thought and examination, I entered and dwelt in the second jhana, which … has rapture and happiness born of concentration. While I dwelt therein, perception and attention accompanied by thought assailed me.
https://suttacentral.net/sn21.1/en/sujato
And so, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected were stilled, I was entering and remaining in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by placing the mind beset me.
https://suttacentral.net/sn21.1/pli/ms
So khvāhaṃ, āvuso, vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja vihariṃ. Tassa mayhaṃ, āvuso, iminā vihārena viharato vitakkasahagatā saññā manasikārā samudācaranti.
samuda- sea, ocean
carati - turn around, perform, roams, walks

mind roams/moves around(vitakkavicara), the suppression/calming/tranquilization/making the mind(citta) one-pointed that concentration produced pitisukha denotes full entrance of second jhana.
While dwelling in that dwelling mind unified then through ones-own-knowing(sanna) you can demand/force mind to move like a water.

avitakkam avicaram means implosion(inward) way of movement. Calming, suppression, tranquilization are inward way of movement
---
straight from practice you can't do several things at the same time, the placing of the mind and keeping it connected, in practice is one thing. But you can keep mind in certain position and then do things what can be done without losing the setup or the initial placement of a mind.

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Re: SN 21.1 Kolita Sutta. With Kolita.

Post by auto » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:32 pm

noble silence

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/pli/ms
“Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro, vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro, saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.
vitakkavicara belongs to vacisankharo
Pubbe kho, āvuso visākha, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṃ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.
pubbe - formerly, in the past
vitakketvā - having reflected, having considered
but point is imagine what 'consideration' involves, it involves holding back or suppressing.., therefore its better to break the word to its subparts since thats how creative persons(translators) get their creative meanings to words..
--
technically there is energy piling up, pressures goes up till there is a release and that what resulted is 'vitakkavicara' - deliberate action what you can leave to do its thing in the background

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