Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

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Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun May 06, 2018 5:06 am

Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.
Translated by Bhante Sujato


The Buddha answers Rāhula’s request by teaching on the internal sense organs in light of the three characteristics.
https://suttacentral.net/sn18.1


So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then Venerable Rāhula went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him: “Sir, may the Buddha please teach me Dhamma in brief. When I’ve heard it, I’ll live alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute.”

“What do you think, Rāhula? Is the eye permanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent, sir.” “But if it’s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?” “Suffering, sir.” “But if it’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “No, sir.”

“Is the ear permanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent, sir.” … “Is the nose permanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent, sir.” … “Is the tongue permanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent, sir.” … “Is the body permanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent, sir.” … “Is the mind permanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent, sir.” “But if it’s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?” “Suffering, sir.” “But if it’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “No, sir.”

“Seeing this, a learned noble disciple becomes disillusioned with the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body, and the mind. Being disillusioned they become dispassionate. Being dispassionate they’re freed. When freed, they know ‘it is freed’. They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’”

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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun May 06, 2018 5:25 am

SN 18.1-18.10 are almost identical, analysing different lists of objects in terms of the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and not self. The lists referred to in each sutta are (using Bhante Sujato's translations):
1. Internal sense organs.
2. External sense objects.
3. Consciousness.
4. Contact.
5. Feeling.
6. Perceptions.
7. Intention.
8. Craving.
9. Elements.
10. Aggregates.
Suttas 11-20 are almost identical to 1-10, on different by Rahula not having to ask to be taught.

These suttas could be thought of as an expansion on the Buddha's second discourse: SN 22.59, Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta SN 22.59, The Characteristic of Not-Self.

Some comments from Bhikkhu Bodhi.

On 18.1:
Rāhula was the Buddha’s son. He became a novice (sāmaṇera) at the age of seven, during the Buddha’s first visit to his native city of Kapilavatthu after his enlightenment. Other discourses spoken to him are: MN 61, 62, and 147 (the latter = SN 35.121) and Sn II, 11 (pp. 58-59). Snp 2.11, Snp 2.12.
Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated.
  • Spk explains the three “grips” (gāha) of “mine, I, and my self” exactly as in n. 155 to SN 12.61.
    • Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’
      • Spk: It is held to (ajjhosita) by being swallowed up by craving; appropriated (mamāyita) by being appropriated by craving; and grasped (parāmaṭṭha) by being grasped through views. “This is mine” (etaṃ mama): the grip of craving (taṇhāgāha); by this the 108 thoughts of craving are included (see AN II 212,31-213,2). “This I am” (eso ’ham asmi): the grip of conceit (mānagāha); by this the nine kinds of conceit are included.
        See I, n. 37 to SN 1.21
        • “One who conceives ‘I am equal, better, or worse,’
          Might on that account engage in disputes.
          But one not shaken in the three discriminations
          Does not think, ‘I am equal or better.’
          • The “three discriminations” (tayo vidhā) are the three modes of conceit: the conceit “I am better” (seyyo ’ham asmimāna), the conceit “I am equal” (sadiso ’ham asmimāna), and the conceit “I am worse” (hīno ’ham asmimāna). See SN 22.49 (III 48-49), SN 45.162, SN 46.41. At Vibh 389-90 it is shown that these three become ninefold in so far as each triad may be entertained by one who is truly better, truly equal, or truly worse. One “not shaken in the three discriminations” is the arahant, who alone has completely eradicated the fetter of conceit. Spk points out that the first couplet shows how sensual pleasures are time-consuming, while the second couplet discusses the supramundane Dhamma.
        “This is my self” (eso me attā): the grip of views (diṭṭhigāha); by this the sixty-two views are included (see DN I 12-38).
      It takes dispassion (virāga) to denote the four paths, liberation (vimutti) the four fruits. Spk does not comment on nibbindati, “experiences revulsion,” but the commentaries consistently identify the corresponding noun nibbidā with strong insight knowledge.
      See above n. 69 to SN 12.23:
      • “I say, bhikkhus, that faith too has a proximate cause; it does not lack a proximate cause. And what is the proximate cause for faith? It should be said: suffering.
        • Spk glosses the terms in the above sequence thus (starting from the end): Suffering is the suffering of the round (vaṭṭadukkha ). Faith is repeatedly arising faith (aparāparaṃ uppajjanasaddhā ; that is, tentative faith, not the unwavering faith of a noble disciple). Gladness (pāmojja) is weak rapture, while rapture proper (pīti) is strong rapture. Tranquillity (passaddhi) is the subsiding of distress, a condition for the happiness preliminary to absorption. Happiness is the happiness in the preliminary phase of meditative absorption, concentration the jhāna used as a basis (for insight; pādakajjhānasamādhi). Knowledge and vision of things as they really are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) is weak insight, namely, the knowledges of the discernment of formations, of the overcoming of doubt, of exploration, and of what is and what is not the path (see Vism chaps. 18-20). Revulsion (nibbidā ) is strong insight, namely, knowledge of appearance as fearful, of contemplation of danger, of reflection, and of equanimity about formations (Vism 645-57; Ppn 21:29-66). Dispassion (virāga) is the path, which arises expunging defilements.
On 18.9
“What do you think, Rāhula, is the earth element ... the water element ... the heat element ... the air element ... the space element … the consciousness element permanent or impermanent?”
  • To the four primary elements of the form aggregate (cattāro mahābhūtā) the suttas sometimes add the space element (ākāsadhātu)—which (according to the commentaries) represents derived form (upādāya rūpa)—and the consciousness element (viññāṇadhātu), which represents the entire mental side of existence. For a detailed analysis of all six elements, see MN III 240,17-243,10. MN 140

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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by mikenz66 » Sat May 12, 2018 10:17 am

Here are some quotes from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Introduction to his SN translation.
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/connect ... troduction
Of the four Nikāyas, SN seems to be the one most heavily subjected to “literary embellishment.” While it is possible that some of the variations stemmed from the Buddha himself, it also seems plausible that many of the more minute elaborations were introduced by the redactors of the canon. I wish to call attention to two distinctive features of the collection which bear testimony to this hypothesis. We might conveniently call them “template parallelism” and “auditor-setting variation.” The texts that exhibit these features are collated in Concordances 3 and 4 respectively. Here I will explain the principles that lie behind these editorial devices and cite a few notable examples of each.

Template parallels are suttas constructed in accordance with the same formal pattern but which differ in the content to which this pattern is applied. The template is the formal pattern or mould; the template sutta, a text created by applying this mould to a particular subject, the “raw material” to be moulded into a sutta. Template parallels cut across the division between saṃyuttas and show how the same formula can be used to make identical statements about different categories of phenomena, for example, about the elements, aggregates, and sense bases (dhātu, khandha, āyatana), or about path factors, enlightenment factors, and spiritual faculties (maggaṅga, bojjhaṅga, indriya). The recurrence of template parallels throughout SN gives us an important insight into the structure of the Buddha’s teaching. It shows that the teaching is constituted by two intersecting components: a formal component expressed by the templates themselves, and a material component provided by the entities that are organized by the templates. The application of the templates to the material components instructs us how the latter are to be treated. Thus we are made to see, from the template suttas, that the constituent factors of existence are to be understood with wisdom; that the defilements are to be abandoned; and that the path factors are to be developed.

The templates are in turn sometimes subsumed at a higher level by what we might call a paradigm, that is, a particular perspective offering us a panoramic overview of the teaching as a whole. Paradigms generate templates, and templates generate suttas. Thus all one need do to compose different suttas is to subject various types of material to the same templates generated by a single paradigm.

SN abounds in examples of this. One prevalent paradigm in the collection, central to the Dhamma, is the three characteristics of existence: impermanence (anicca), suffering (dukkha), and nonself (anattā). This paradigm governs whole series of suttas both in SN 22 and SN 35, the royal saṃyuttas of Parts III and IV, respectively; for it is above all the five aggregates and the six pairs of sense bases that must be seen with insight in order to win the fruits of liberation. The “three characteristics paradigm” generates four common templates: impermanent, etc., in the three times; the simple contemplation of impermanence, etc.; impermanent, etc., through causes and conditions; and, most critical in the Buddha’s soteriological plan, the “what is impermanent is suffering” template, which sets the three characteristics in relation to one another.
...
... Even these [sutta classification counts], however, can convey a misleading picture, for the classification is made by way of titles only, and these provide a very inadequate indication of the contents of the actual saṃyutta. The Rāhulasaṃyutta and the Rādhasaṃyutta, for example, are classified under “Specific Person,” but they deal almost exclusively with the three characteristics and the five aggregates, respectively, and give us absolutely no personal information about these individuals; thus their content is properly doctrinal rather than biographical. ...
:heart:
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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by rightviewftw » Sat May 12, 2018 4:01 pm

It seems to me like there is a progression in the development of the meditation given to Rahula;
Cakkhu Sutta contemplates the most obvious sense body
Cula-Rahulovada is more detailed and focus is on contact
Maha-Rahulovada is more advanced yet and the focus is on the elements internal and external but still contemplates the same theme essentially

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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by mikenz66 » Sat May 12, 2018 9:25 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:01 pm
It seems to me like there is a progression in the development of the meditation given to Rahula;
Cakkhu Sutta contemplates the most obvious sense body
Cula-Rahulovada is more detailed and focus is on contact
Maha-Rahulovada is more advanced yet and the focus is on the elements internal and external but still contemplates the same theme essentially
But the
Cula-Rahulovada sutta https://suttacentral.net/mn147
which is the same as
Rāhulovāda Sutta https://suttacentral.net/sn35.121
is about Rahula's awakening, so presumably that is the most advanced?
And while this discourse was being spoken, Rāhula’s mind was freed from defilements by not grasping.
https://suttacentral.net/mn147/en/sujato#9.11
This is basically the same instruction as given in the second discourse of the Buddha:
And while this discourse was being spoken, the minds of the group of five mendicants were freed from defilements by not grasping.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/sujato#12.3
:heart:
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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by rightviewftw » Sat May 12, 2018 9:48 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:25 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:01 pm
It seems to me like there is a progression in the development of the meditation given to Rahula;
Cakkhu Sutta contemplates the most obvious sense body
Cula-Rahulovada is more detailed and focus is on contact
Maha-Rahulovada is more advanced yet and the focus is on the elements internal and external but still contemplates the same theme essentially
But the
Cula-Rahulovada sutta https://suttacentral.net/mn147
which is the same as
Rāhulovāda Sutta https://suttacentral.net/sn35.121
is about Rahula's awakening, so presumably that is the most advanced?
And while this discourse was being spoken, Rāhula’s mind was freed from defilements by not grasping.
https://suttacentral.net/mn147/en/sujato#9.11
This is basically the same instruction as given in the second discourse of the Buddha:
And while this discourse was being spoken, the minds of the group of five mendicants were freed from defilements by not grasping.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/sujato#12.3
:heart:
Mike
yea you are right, thank you for the correction i am guessing the progression is sense organs -> elements -> contact

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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat May 12, 2018 10:12 pm

can you do chiggala sutta sometime
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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by thomaslaw » Wed May 16, 2018 1:22 am

Hi

The textual structure of this SN 18 Raahula Samyutta is similar to SN 25-27 (Okkantika, Uppaada, and Kilesa Samyuttas).

Thomas

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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by thomaslaw » Fri May 18, 2018 2:23 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:22 am
Hi

The textual structure of this SN 18 Raahula Samyutta is similar to SN 25-27 (Okkantika, Uppaada, and Kilesa Samyuttas).

Thomas
About these Samyuttas and their Chinese versions, see the following recent article by Choong Mun-keat:

“A comparison of the Pāli and Chinese versions of Okkantika Saṃyutta, Uppāda Saṃyutta, Kilesa Saṃyutta and Rāhula Saṃyutta, early Buddhist discourses on entering, arising, affliction, and the Venerable Rāhula”, in Journal of Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, 2018 (14): 20-36.

Regards,

Thomas

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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by DooDoot » Fri May 18, 2018 2:37 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:12 pm
can you do chiggala sutta sometime
There are two Chiggala Sutta: (i) SN 56.47 explanatory version and (ii) unexplanatory version SN 56.48. Which version to do?
mikenz66 wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 5:25 am
These suttas could be thought of as an expansion on the Buddha's second discourse: SN 22.59, Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta SN 22.59, The Characteristic of Not-Self.
If so, then the question should probably be asked: "Why do these suttas to Rahula on the Three Characteristics appear in the Nidāna Vaggasaṃyutta rather than with SN 22.59 in the Khandha Vaggasaṃyutta"?
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:01 pm
It seems to me like there is a progression in the development of the meditation given to Rahula
In SN 18, it seems like the Buddha has taught Rahula most of the conditions of Dependent Origination in terms of the Three Characteristics. That is probably why these suttas to Rahula are in the Nidāna Vaggasaṃyutta rather than in the Khandha Vaggasaṃyutta. It follows a scheme similar to DN 22:
“And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming—accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there—i.e., sensuality-craving, becoming-craving, and non-becoming-craving.

“And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever is endearing & alluring in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

“And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world?

The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

“The ear…. The nose…. The tongue…. The body…. The intellect….

“Forms…. Sounds…. Aromas…. Tastes…. Tactile sensations…. Ideas….

“Eye-consciousness…. Ear-consciousness…. Nose-consciousness…. Tongue-consciousness…. Body-consciousness…. Intellect-consciousness….

“Eye-contact…. Ear-contact…. Nose-contact…. Tongue-contact…. Body-contact…. Intellect-contact….

“Feeling born of eye-contact…. Feeling born of ear-contact…. Feeling born of nose-contact…. Feeling born of tongue-contact…. Feeling born of body-contact…. Feeling born of intellect-contact….

“Perception of forms…. Perception of sounds…. Perception of aromas…. Perception of tastes…. Perception of tactile sensations…. Perception of ideas….

“Intention for forms…. Intention for sounds…. Intention for aromas…. Intention for tastes…. Intention for tactile sensations…. Intention for ideas….

“Craving for forms…. Craving for sounds…. Craving for aromas…. Craving for tastes…. Craving for tactile sensations…. Craving for ideas….

“Thought directed at forms…. Thought directed at sounds…. Thought directed at aromas…. Thought directed at tastes…. Thought directed at tactile sensations…. Thought directed at ideas….

“Evaluation of forms…. Evaluation of sounds…. Evaluation of aromas…. Evaluation of tastes…. Evaluation of tactile sensations…. Evaluation of ideas is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

“This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

DN 22
:alien:
thomaslaw wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:22 am
The textual structure of this SN 18 Raahula Samyutta is similar to SN 25-27 (Okkantika, Uppaada, and Kilesa Samyuttas).
The placement of these Samyuttas (chapters) with the various sections (Vaggas) is interesting & often difficult to logically fit. For example, SN 26 about "Arising" (Uppāda Saṃyutta) seems like it best belongs in the Nidāna Vaggasaṃyutta. Based on my personal interpretation of the teachings, SN 26 placed after SN 25 creates confusion. SN 25 fits into the Khandha Vagga but, imo, SN 26 is out of place in the Khandha Vagga and should be in the Nidana Vagga.
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:17 am
Here are some quotes from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Introduction to his SN translation.
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/connect ... troduction
Of the four Nikāyas, SN seems to be the one most heavily subjected to “literary embellishment.” While it is possible that some of the variations stemmed from the Buddha himself, it also seems plausible that many of the more minute elaborations were introduced by the redactors of the canon.
I might agree here. The placement of some of these texts is unusual.

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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by thomaslaw » Sat May 19, 2018 5:42 am

The Chinese versions (SA 892, 899, 900, 897) are all located in the Nidana Vagga, which is called the Zayin song in the Chinese, according to Choong Mun-keat's recent article, in pp. 12-3, 23:

“A comparison of the Pāli and Chinese versions of Okkantika Saṃyutta, Uppāda Saṃyutta, Kilesa Saṃyutta and Rāhula Saṃyutta, early Buddhist discourses on entering, arising, affliction, and the Venerable Rāhula”, in Journal of Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, 2018 (14): 20-36.

Choong in the article considers that both the Pali and the Chinese texts are all artificial and/or late addition; and it is possible that the discourses were at first attached to, or subordinated to, the relevant section (vaggas/songs), which is called the sutra-anga sections. That means, the Pāli and Chinese versions of Okkantika Saṃyutta, Uppāda Saṃyutta, Kilesa Saṃyutta and Rāhula Saṃyutta (= SA 892, 899, 900, 897) are belonging to the vyakarana-anga (veyyakarana-gana), according to Yinshun.

Thomas

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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 19, 2018 8:34 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 5:42 am
“A comparison of the Pāli and Chinese versions of Okkantika Saṃyutta, Uppāda Saṃyutta, Kilesa Saṃyutta and Rāhula Saṃyutta, early Buddhist discourses on entering, arising, affliction, and the Venerable Rāhula”, in Journal of Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, 2018 (14): 20-36.

Choong in the article considers that both the Pali and the Chinese texts are all artificial and/or late addition; and it is possible that the discourses were at first attached to, or subordinated to, the relevant section (vaggas/songs), which is called the sutra-anga sections. That means, the Pāli and Chinese versions of Okkantika Saṃyutta, Uppāda Saṃyutta, Kilesa Saṃyutta and Rāhula Saṃyutta (= SA 892, 899, 900, 897) are belonging to the vyakarana-anga (veyyakarana-gana), according to Yinshun.
Thanks for that. My guess is these suttas are found in different Samyuttas to highlight how the modes (Nidana) of Dependent Origination are all impermanent & not-self and to highlight how all aggregates (Khandha and Dhatu) can be objects of attachment in Dependent Origination.
Dhammanando wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:01 am
...
Venerable. Can I invite you to comment on the above discussion, namely, the Okkantika Saṃyutta, Uppāda Saṃyutta, Kilesa Saṃyutta and Rāhula Saṃyutta in respect to their inclusion and placement in the SN.

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Re: Cakkhu Sutta SN 18.1. The Eye, etc.

Post by Dhammanando » Sat May 19, 2018 9:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:34 am
Venerable. Can I invite you to comment on the above discussion, namely, the Okkantika Saṃyutta, Uppāda Saṃyutta, Kilesa Saṃyutta and Rāhula Saṃyutta in respect to their inclusion and placement in the SN.
I would want to read Mun-keat's article before commenting.

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