SN 16.13 Saddhamma­patirūpaka Sutta. The Counterfeit of the True Dhamma.

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Sam Vara
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Re: SN 16.13 Saddhamma­patirūpaka Sutta. The Counterfeit of the True Dhamma.

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:15 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:54 pm
The bottom line for any evaluation as to whether something is dhamma or not is based on lessening of defilements and progress on the path. Ajahn Geoff teaches very in depth courses on this very subject--about identifying true dhamma based on the suttas, not his pontifications.
Yes, that's the theory, but in practice reading this "bottom line" is quite difficult. There are so many factors involved, and if progress were easily discernible I imagine there would be less discussion and disagreement as to what practices and techniques are efficacious.
Parenthetically, Ajahn Geoff's statements on nibbana (which I think people get tripped up on unnecessarily) are actually quite common in Thai Forest Tradition monks, just not very many English speaking ones.
Yes, I think you are right.

thomaslaw
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Re: SN 16.13 Saddhamma­patirūpaka Sutta. The Counterfeit of the True Dhamma.

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:39 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:37 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:54 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:08 am

Doesn't the current sutta include samadhi?
Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. The current sutta in question includes samadhi, whereas the other lists of things worthy of respect do not. I'm wondering why that is.
Not sure. See footnote [314] for another sutta that lists “lack of mutual respect and deference" instead.

Might be interesting to look at parallels....

Mike
The Chinese parallels (both SA = T2 no. 99 and ASA = T2 no. 100) do not include samadhi,
according to Choong Mun-keat's article, 'A comparison of the Pali and Chinese versions of the Kassapa Samyutta, a collection of early Buddhist discourses on the Venerable Kasyapa', in Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, vol. 27, Issue 2, 2017, p. 307:

" ... SA 906 = ASA 121 = SN 16.13 specify five factors that lead to the non-disappearance (or disappearance) of the true Dharma. ...
According to the SN version, the five things for which monks (bhikkhū), nuns (bhikkhuṇī), male lay followers (upāsakā), and female lay followers (upāsikā) dwell with respect are: 1. the teacher (satthar), 2. the teaching (Dhamma), 3. the assembly (sangha), 4. the training (sikkhā), and 5. concentration (samādhi).
The SA version refers to monks dwelling with respect and support (供養 gongyang) for: 1. the Buddha/teacher, 2. the teaching, 3. the training, 4. the instructions, and 5. the followers of the holy life who are praised by the Buddha. The ASA version is similar to the SA version, but does not explicitly refer to only the monks dwelling with respect and support towards the five factors. "

Regards,

Thomas

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mikenz66
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Re: SN 16.13 Saddhamma­patirūpaka Sutta. The Counterfeit of the True Dhamma.

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:03 am

Thanks! Very interesting to have the parallels.

Mike

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