SN 16.12 Tathāgata parammaraṇa sutta. After Death.

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SarathW
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Re: SN 16.12 Tathāgata parammaraṇa sutta. After Death.

Post by SarathW » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:21 am

Can we apply these questions to chariot simile?

ie:
“How is it, friend Kassapa, does the chariot exist after its dissemble?”
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

JohnK
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Re: SN 16.12 Tathāgata parammaraṇa sutta. After Death.

Post by JohnK » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:40 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:21 am
“How is it, friend Kassapa, does the chariot exist after its dissemble?”
Interesting -- the chariot simile is about what Thanissaro calls "not-self." He cites suttas to indicate that, like the subject sutta, the Buddha suggests that questions about the actual existence of self and no-self just lead to a thicket of views; but the "perception" of not-self can lead one along the path to dispassion and nibbana and the loss of any interest in questions of existence and being.
(Sorry I don't have time right now to quote him, buy I don't think I am misrepresenting him.)
On the other hand, there are teachers who do not see it the way Thanissaro does.
They might answer your chariot question this way:
"The chariot did not exist before its disassembly."
(The chariot being a simile for a self that is somehow distinct from the operations of the aggregate parts.)
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

santa100
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Re: SN 16.12 Tathāgata parammaraṇa sutta. After Death.

Post by santa100 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:17 pm

It's important to keep in mind that "yes" and "no" are not the sufficient answers that cover all bases to the truth. And we don't need to talk about the higher truth just yet, they show their limitation even in mundane disciplines. For example, in geometry, how would one answer the question whether 2 parallel lines will ever meet? yes, or no? Well, that depends on the context. It'd be a No in the context of Euclidean geometry, but it'd be a definite Yes in the context of spherical geometry. This also serves as the basis to that common brainteaser about where on the earth can a man walks southward for 1 mile, then eastward for 1 mile, then northward 1 mile, and end up in the same exact original spot.

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equilibrium
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Re: SN 16.12 Tathāgata parammaraṇa sutta. After Death.

Post by equilibrium » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:29 am
I would have preferred a straight answer to the question.
The question is also framed wrongly because in that dimension, birth & death doesn't apply. Therefore to ask existence which has death is therefore conditioned. Buddha is beyond this:.....under MN121:
..... Ven. Ananda, coming out of seclusion, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "On one occasion, when the Blessed One was staying among the Sakyans in a Sakyan town named Nagaraka, there — face-to-face with the Blessed One — I heard this, face-to-face I learned this: 'I now remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness.' Did I hear that correctly, learn it correctly, attend to it correctly, remember it correctly?"

[The Buddha:] "Yes, Ananda, you heard that correctly, learned it correctly, attended to it correctly, remembered it correctly. Now, as well as before, I remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness.....

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