AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

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AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:41 pm

AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.
Translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

https://suttacentral.net/an5.130
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN5_130.html

This discourse serves as a strong reminder not to break the precepts even for the sake of people or things one holds dear.



“Monks, there are these five kinds of loss. Which five? Loss of relatives, loss of wealth, loss through disease, loss in terms of virtue, loss in terms of views. It’s not by reason of loss of relatives, loss of wealth, or loss through disease that beings—with the break-up of the body, after death—reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. It’s by reason of loss in terms of virtue and loss in terms of views that beings—with the break-up of the body, after death—reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. These are the five kinds of loss.

“There are these five ways of being consummate. Which five? Being consummate in terms of relatives, being consummate in terms of wealth, being consummate in terms of freedom from disease, being consummate in terms of virtue, being consummate in terms of views. It’s not by reason of being consummate in terms of relatives, being consummate in terms of wealth, or being consummate in terms of freedom from disease that beings—with the break-up of the body, after death—reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world. It’s by reason of being consummate in virtue and being consummate in terms of views that beings—with the break-up of the body, after death—reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world. These are the five ways of being consummate.”

See also: MN 75; MN 82; MN 97; AN 8:54.

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Re: AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:45 pm

Comments from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
Disaster regarding virtuous behavior (sīlavyasana) obviously
refers to conduct that violates the five ethical precepts, and disas-
ter regarding view (diṭṭhivyasana) to the adoption of a wrong
view, particularly the view that denies the principle of kamma
and its results.

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Re: AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:03 pm

Many thanks. This is an interesting one, which I hadn't seen before. (I really do need to buy a copy of the Anguttara!) Vyasana, which Thanissaro translates as "loss", BB presumably renders as "disaster". I suppose we can think of it in terms of a "falling away" from correct standards of virtue, and from Right View. An optimistic sutta, one for the "good people", as it implies that we have at least attained these things in the first place, and need to protect them against disaster or misfortune. Tough-minded, too. How many of us can say that we fear the loss of Right View or an aspect of morality more than we fear the loss of a relative, or wealth, or our health?

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Re: AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:26 pm

Good guess Sam.

Bhikkhu Bodhi translates the title as "Accomplishments":
“Bhikkhus, there are these five disasters. ...
“Bhikkhus, there are these five accomplishments. ...

It is nice to just work through the suttas (in case you lost track, we are in the "Heaven and Hell" section of Bhikkhu Bodhi's thematic guide to the AN), and see what pops up, rather than going over the same familiar suttas...

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Re: AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by phil » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:56 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:03 pm
How many of us can say that we fear the loss of Right View or an aspect of morality more than we fear the loss of a relative, or wealth, or our health?
 I've been aware more and more clearly that Dhamma is all about a higher form of health and wealth for me, that I am procuring insurance for Phil, to hopefully provide some comfort and encouragement in hard times, just as I use Dhamma now to get through hard days. It is a kind of balm, or panacea, or I want it to be that. Hopefully thanks to decent morality there will be better conditions for understanding to develop in ways that do actually lead to an appreciation of "release" and "nibbana" and inconceivables (for me) like that, but for now Dhamma is just a higher form of clinging to mental pleasure, and refined mental health. When there is a crisis related to wealth, health, loved ones will I not plunge into some kind of superstitious praying for a miracle, will sila and right view about results of kamma etc have any bearing at all. No need for me to speculate on that, just keep on clinging on to being the good person who is earning some protection down the road...and in the meantime at least living in a relatively harmless way. (This is why I appreciate non-harmfulness as the most immediate important and confirmable result of Dhamma. There are doubts about where the path leads but no doubt non-hamrfulness is real and valuable now.)

I guess I am a busy householder who just hopes for a good destination after death, I have come across householders like that in the suttas.

Sorry if this is off topic, it is something I have been thinking about a lot lately.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by phil » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:02 am

I was thinking about the sutta that says something about how the world is swept away etc but any moment of restraint will be a shelter in this life and lives to come, something like that. It's easy to say that our moments of abstaining from harmful deeds will bring good results in this life and lives to come, feels good to believe it but how is it the "right view" that is said to be so valuable in the sutta we are studying this week rather than believing in something in a blind, superstitious way for emotional comfort, escape from the unpleasantness of fear?

I don't really get "right view" for this reason.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:14 am

Thanks Phil,
... But though the world is swept away by old age, illness, and death, when one has departed, bodily, verbal, and mental self-control will provide a shelter, a harbor, an island, a refuge, and a support.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.51
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Re: AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by phil » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:30 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:14 am
Thanks Phil,
... But though the world is swept away by old age, illness, and death, when one has departed, bodily, verbal, and mental self-control will provide a shelter, a harbor, an island, a refuge, and a support.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.51
:heart:
Mike
Thanks Mike.

Very comforting, but when I reflect on it it feels like clinging to comfort in the same way as.clinging to health, to wealth, to family is, if you know what I mean. Doesn't feel based in real understanding.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by L.N. » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:43 pm

phil wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:02 am
I was thinking about the sutta that says something about how the world is swept away etc but any moment of restraint will be a shelter in this life and lives to come, something like that. It's easy to say that our moments of abstaining from harmful deeds will bring good results in this life and lives to come, feels good to believe it but how is it the "right view" that is said to be so valuable in the sutta we are studying this week rather than believing in something in a blind, superstitious way for emotional comfort, escape from the unpleasantness of fear?

I don't really get "right view" for this reason.
Believing in something in a blind, superstitious way for emotional comfort and escape from fear may get in the way of understanding the principle of kamma and its results.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by phil » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:09 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:43 pm
phil wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:02 am
I was thinking about the sutta that says something about how the world is swept away etc but any moment of restraint will be a shelter in this life and lives to come, something like that. It's easy to say that our moments of abstaining from harmful deeds will bring good results in this life and lives to come, feels good to believe it but how is it the "right view" that is said to be so valuable in the sutta we are studying this week rather than believing in something in a blind, superstitious way for emotional comfort, escape from the unpleasantness of fear?

I don't really get "right view" for this reason.
Believing in something in a blind, superstitious way for emotional comfort and escape from fear may get in the way of understanding the principle of kamma and its results.
Yes, definitely. So how does one understand the principle of kamma and its results (i.e how does one have right view) especially when it pertains to lives to come? Since this is the classical forum, perhaps we can look from a canonical point of view rather than exchanging opinions. I guess the suttas that say one will benefit from living in virtue whether it is true that there are results in lives to come or not are helpful.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: AN 5.130 Sampadā [Byasana] Sutta. Being Consummate.

Post by phil » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:32 am

I was thinking later that though this sutta praises this ( for me) abstract concept of "right view" it is really all the moments of understanding that are valuable. One sutta that captures this very succinctly for me is the one that says "he overwhelms objects, is not overwhelmed by objects" Or overcomes, I forget which. But this is what is, in my opinion, more valuable than "right view", whatever that is...the moments of understanding that liberate us from our compulsions...momentarily, and more and more often, in a way that becomes more and more habitual, gradually.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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