AN 10.177 Jāṇussoṇī Sutta. To Janussonin.

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

Moderator: mikenz66

Locked
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15176
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

AN 10.177 Jāṇussoṇī Sutta. To Janussonin.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:45 am

AN 10.177 Jāṇussoṇī Sutta. To Janussonin.
Translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


https://suttacentral.net/an10.177
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Then Janussonin the brahman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Master Gotama, you know that we brahmans give gifts, make offerings, [saying,] 'May this gift accrue to our dead relatives. May our dead relatives partake of this gift.' Now, Master Gotama, does that gift accrue to our dead relatives? Do our dead relatives partake of that gift?"

"In possible places, brahman, it accrues to them, but not in impossible places."

"And which, Master Gotama, are the possible places? Which are the impossible places?"

"There is the case, brahman, where a certain person takes life, takes what is not given, engages in sensual misconduct, engages in false speech, engages in divisive speech, engages in abusive speech, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, bears ill will, and has wrong views. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in hell. He lives there, he remains there, by means of whatever is the food of hell-beings. This is an impossible place for that gift to accrue to one staying there.

"Then there is the case where a certain person takes life, takes what is not given, engages in sensual misconduct, engages in false speech, engages in divisive speech, engages in abusive speech, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, bears ill will, and has wrong views. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the animal womb. He lives there, he remains there, by means of whatever is the food of common animals. This, too, is an impossible place for that gift to accrue to one staying there.

"Then there is the case where a certain person refrains from taking life, refrains from taking what is not given, refrains from sensual misconduct, refrains from false speech, refrains from divisive speech, refrains from abusive speech, refrains from idle chatter, is not covetous, bears no ill will, and has right views. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of human beings. He lives there, he remains there, by means of whatever is the food of human beings. This, too, is an impossible place for that gift to accrue to one staying there.

"Then there is the case where a certain person refrains from taking life, refrains from taking what is not given, refrains from sensual misconduct, refrains from false speech, refrains from divisive speech, refrains from abusive speech, refrains from idle chatter, is not covetous, bears no ill will, and has right views. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas. He lives there, he remains there, by means of whatever is the food of devas. This, too, is an impossible place for that gift to accrue to one staying there.

"Then there is the case where a certain person takes life, takes what is not given, engages in sensual misconduct, engages in false speech, engages in divisive speech, engages in abusive speech, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, bears ill will, and has wrong views. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the realms of the hungry shades. He lives there, he remains there, by means of whatever is the food of hungry shades. He lives there, he remains that, by means of whatever his friends or relatives give in dedication to him. This is the possible place for that gift to accrue to one staying there.

"But, Master Gotama, if that dead relative does not reappear in that possible place, who partakes of that gift?"

"Other dead relatives, brahman, who have reappeared in that possible place."

"But, Master Gotama, if that dead relative does not reappear in that possible place, and other dead relatives have not reappeared in that possible place, then who partakes of that gift?"

"It's impossible, brahman, it cannot be, that over this long time that possible place is devoid of one's dead relatives. [1] But at any rate, the donor does not go without reward.

"Does Master Gotama describe any preparation for the impossible places?"

"Brahman, I do describe a preparation for the impossible places. There is the case where a certain person takes life, takes what is not given, engages in sensual misconduct, engages in false speech, engages in divisive speech, engages in abusive speech, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, bears ill will, and has wrong views. But he gives food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, & lamps to brahmans & contemplatives. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of elephants. There he receives food, drink, flowers, & various ornaments. It's because he took life, took what is not given, engaged in sensual misconduct, engaged in false speech, engaged in divisive speech, engaged in abusive speech, engaged in idle chatter, was covetous, bore ill will, and had wrong views that he reappears in the company of elephants. But it's because he gave food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, & lamps to brahmans & contemplatives that he receives food, drink, flowers, & various ornaments.

"Then there is the case where a certain person takes life... has wrong views. But he gives food... lamps to brahmans & contemplatives. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of horses... in the company of cattle... in the company of poultry. There he receives food, drink, flowers, & various ornaments. [2] It's because he took life... and had wrong views that he reappears in the company of poultry. But it's because he gave food, drink... & lamps to brahmans & contemplatives that he receives food, drink, flowers, & various ornaments.

"Then there is the case where a certain person refrains from taking life, refrains from taking what is not given, refrains from sensual misconduct, refrains from false speech, refrains from divisive speech, refrains from abusive speech, refrains from idle chatter, is not covetous, bears no ill will, and has right views. And he gives food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, & lamps to brahmans & contemplatives. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of human beings. There he experiences the five strings of human sensuality [delightful sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations]. It's because he refrained from taking what is not given, refrained from sensual misconduct, refrained from false speech, refrained from divisive speech, refrained from abusive speech, refrained from idle chatter, was not covetous, bore no ill will, and had right views that he reappears in the company of human beings. And it's because he gave food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, & lamps to brahmans & contemplatives that he experiences the five strings of human sensuality. [3]

"Then there is the case where a certain person refrains from taking life... and has right views. And he gives food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, & lamps to brahmans & contemplatives. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of devas. There he experiences the five strings of divine sensuality [delightful sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations]. It's because he refrained from taking what is not given... and had right views that he reappears in the company of devas. And it's because he gave food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, & lamps to brahmans & contemplatives that he experiences the five strings of divine sensuality. But at any rate, brahman, the donor does not go without reward."

"It's amazing, Master Gotama, it's astounding, how it's enough to make one want to give a gift, enough to make one want to make an offering, where the donor does not go without reward."

"That's the way it is, brahman. That's the way it is. The donor does not go without reward."

"Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, & to the community of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."

Notes

1. The Vinaya counts as one's relatives all those related back through seven generations past one's grandparents — in other words, all those descended from one's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.

2. Apparently, "ornaments" for poultry would consist of brilliant plumage. Similarly, "ornaments" for elephants, horses, & cattle might consist of attractive markings.

3. For some reason, the PTS translation of this sutta cuts off right here.

See also: MN 135; MN 136; SN 42.6; SN 42.8; Khp 7.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15176
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 10.177 Jāṇussoṇī Sutta. To Janussonin.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:51 am

Commentary from Bhikkhu Bodhi.

“Here, brahmin, someone destroys life, takes what is not
given, engages in sexual misconduct, speaks falsehood, speaks
divisively, speaks harshly, indulges in idle chatter; he is full of
longing, has a mind of ill will, and holds wrong view. With the
breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in hell. [2170] He sus-
tains himself and subsists there on the food of the hell-beings.
This is a wrong occasion, when the gift is not of benefit to one
living there.
  • [2170] It is presumably the passages on the ten unwholesome and
    wholesome courses of kamma that explain the inclusion of this
    sutta in the Tens.

“But, Master Gotama, who partakes of the gift if that deceased
relative or family member has not been reborn in that place?”
“Other departed relatives or family members who have been
reborn [2171] in that place partake of the gift.”
  • [2171] Ce anuppannā should be corrected to upapannā, the reading in Be
    and Ee and clearly required by the context.
“Does Master Gotama posit [the value of giving] even on the
wrong occasion?” [2172]
  • [2172] Aṭṭhānepi bhavaṃ gotamo parikappaṃ vadati. Mp: “[By this] he asks:
    ‘When it is the wrong occasion [for sharing the merit of giving],
    does Master Gotama proclaim the fruitfulness of giving to that
    relative?’ For the brahmin held the belief that the donor does not
    gain any fruit of a gift given thus. But the Blessed One, having
    acknowledged his question, shows: ‘The donor gains the fruit of
    his gift wherever he is reborn, in any place where he is sustained
    by his meritorious fruits.’”

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15176
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 10.177 Jāṇussoṇī Sutta. To Janussonin.

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:59 am

It's common to wish that the merit of our practice goes to others, possibly those who have departed. This sutta (and KHP-7 are the basis for this.
"Master Gotama, you know that we brahmans give gifts, make offerings, [saying,] 'May this gift accrue to our dead relatives. May our dead relatives partake of this gift.' Now, Master Gotama, does that gift accrue to our dead relatives? Do our dead relatives partake of that gift?"

"In possible places, brahman, it accrues to them, but not in impossible places."
:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: AN 10.177 Jāṇussoṇī Sutta. To Janussonin.

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:42 pm

This might be a stupid or uninformed question (I haven't read the sutta as a whole yet), but does the Buddha expound a list of such places where this is possible and where it is not?
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3701
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Cremation Ground, Phrao District, Chiangmai

Re: AN 10.177 Jāṇussoṇī Sutta. To Janussonin.

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:21 am

Coëmgenu wrote:This might be a stupid or uninformed question (I haven't read the sutta as a whole yet), but does the Buddha expound a list of such places where this is possible and where it is not?
The sutta says that it's possible to benefit beings in the peta/preta realm and nowhere else.

The Milindapañha narrows it down further, stating that there are four kinds of peta, of which only one, the paradattūpajīvī, is able to benefit from the gifts of humans.
  • “Three of the four classes of peta do not receive it: those who feed on what has been vomited up, those who are tormented by hunger and thirst, those who are consumed by craving.” (Mil. 294)

santa100
Posts: 2725
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: AN 10.177 Jāṇussoṇī Sutta. To Janussonin.

Post by santa100 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:24 am

Link to Miln. for those interested...
Miln. Chpt. 15.74 wrote:Is it possible for all deceased relatives to share in the merit of a good deed?”
“No. Only those who are born as hungry ghosts who feed off the merit of others are able to share in the merit. Those born in hell, those in heaven, animals, and hungry ghosts who feed on vomit, or hungry ghosts who hunger and thirst, or hungry ghosts who are consumed by craving, do not derive any profit.”

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests