SN 14.39 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta 3. Ascetics and Brahmins (3).

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SN 14.39 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta 3. Ascetics and Brahmins (3).

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:51 am

SN 14.39 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta 3. Ascetics and Brahmins (3).
Translated by Piya Tan.


http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 9-piya.pdf

1 (The Blessed One was) residing at Sāvatthī.

Those who do not understand the elements

2 “Bhikshus, those recluses and brahmins
who do not understand the earth element,
who do not understand the arising of the earth element,
who do not understand the ending of the earth element,
who do not understand the way to the ending of the earth element—
I do not regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones do not, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and
dwell, here and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood. [177]

3 Those recluses and brahmins
who do not understand the water element,
who do not understand the arising of the water element,
who do not understand the ending of the water element,
who do not understand the way to the ending of the water element—
I do not regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones do not, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and
dwell, here and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood.

4 Those recluses and brahmins
who do not understand the fire element,
who do not understand the arising of the fire element,
who do not understand the ending of the fire element,
who do not understand the way to the ending of the fire element—
I do not regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones do not, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and
dwell, here and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood.

5 Those recluses and brahmins
who do not understand the wind element,
who do not understand the arising of the wind element,
who do not understand the ending of the wind element,
who do not understand the way to the ending of the wind element—
I do not regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones do not, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and
dwell, here and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood.

Those who understand the elements

6 But, bhikshus, those recluses and brahmins
who understand the earth element,
who understand the arising of the earth element,
who understand the ending of the earth element,
who understand the way to the ending of the earth element—
I regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and dwell, here
and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood.

7 Those recluses and brahmins
who understand the water element,
who understand the arising of the water element,
who understand the ending of the water element,
who understand the way to the ending of the water element—
I regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and dwell, here
and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood.

8 Those recluses and brahmins
who understand the fire element,
who understand the arising of the fire element,
who understand the ending of the fire element,
who understand the way to the ending of the fire element—
I regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and dwell, here
and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood.

9 Those recluses and brahmins
who understand the wind element,
who understand the arising of the wind element,
who understand the ending of the wind element,
who understand the way to the ending of the wind element—
I regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones do not, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and
dwell, here and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood.

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Re: SN 14.39 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta 3. Ascetics and Brahmins (3).

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:55 am

This is the third in a series of Suttas. The first was here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=28441

The second: http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 8-piya.pdf
adds to the three terms:

danger (adīnava) the first truth, that is suffering;
gratification (assada) the second truth, that is, the arising of suffering, craving; and
escape (nissaraaa) the third truth, that is, the ending of suffering, nirvana.

two more (before the above):
arising (samudaya)
passing away (attha’gama)

Giving:
Bhikshus, those recluses and brahmins who do not understand, according to reality,
the arising, the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to these four
elements—
I do not regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones do not, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and
dwell, here and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood.
Piya Tan notes:
Here, obviously, the first two terms do not refer to the second or third noble truths, which are already found in “gratification” (assāda) and “escape” (nissaraṇa). The arising and passing away here, I think, refers to the process of impermanence that the wise practitioner should observe.
The current sutta only mentions the arising and passing away, but adds the the way to the ending... of each element:
“Bhikshus, those recluses and brahmins
who do not understand the earth element,
who do not understand the arising of the earth element,
who do not understand the ending of the earth element,
who do not understand the way to the ending of the earth element—
I do not regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones do not, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and
dwell, here and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood
:anjali:
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Re: SN 14.39 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta 3. Ascetics and Brahmins (3).

Post by The Thinker » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:44 pm

So what is going on here then? and what is the meaning?
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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Re: SN 14.39 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta 3. Ascetics and Brahmins (3).

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:42 am

These three suttas seem to be closely related to the Four Noble Truths.
The First SN 14.37 http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 41#p406334
Talks of the
Gratification, Danger, and Escape with respect to each element.
This can be mapped to the Second, First, and Third Truth (note the order).
See: https://suttacentral.net/en/sn56.11
The Truths are Existence, Origin, Cessation, Path to Cessation of Dukkha.


The Second, 14.38 http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 8-piya.pdf
Adds Arising and Passing away to give:
Arising, Passing away, Gratification, Danger, and Escape

The Third, 14.39, current thread, has
Arising, Ending, and Way to Ending.
Perhaps we could map these to the First, Third, and Fourth Truths.

Thoughts?

:anjali:
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Re: SN 14.39 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta 3. Ascetics and Brahmins (3).

Post by The Thinker » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:39 am

I struggle with the meaning of this sutta(not one of my favs), it is certainly deep enough for any newcomer. The problem is that there is no advice, it is a judgmental sutta or that's how I read it Does the buddha refer to meditation, to cutting off distractions, the practice etc?
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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Re: SN 14.39 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta 3. Ascetics and Brahmins (3).

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:54 am

Would you like to explain what you find particularly difficult about it?

It might be helpful to compare with MN 9, which goes through a series of Noble Truth patterns:
Saying, “Good, friend,” the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Sāriputta’s words. Then they asked him a further question: “But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma?”—“There might be, friends.

60“When, friends, a noble disciple understands consciousness, the origin of consciousness, the cessation of consciousness, and the way leading to the cessation of consciousness, in that way he is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma.
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn9/72-
See also Chapter IX, Shining the Light of Wisdom, of In the Buddha's Words: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640

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Re: SN 14.39 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta 3. Ascetics and Brahmins (3).

Post by The Thinker » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:05 am

Hi, mikenz66, the problem is the use of the elements in the description, and why use the elements? I must explain that I am no scholar and consider myself a learner, so my natural tendency is to look at each sutta on its own merit.


So how do people interpret the meaning from this sutta and relate it to other suttas?
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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