AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

Moderator: mikenz66

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14897
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:31 am

AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli
Translate by Bhante Sujato


https://suttacentral.net/an10.47

At one time the Holy One was staying at Vesālī in the Great Wood, in the Hall with the Peaked Roof. Then Mahāli the Licchavi went up to the Holy One, bowed, sat down on one side, and said to him:

“Venerable Sir, what is the cause, what is the reason for the doing of bad deeds, for the performing of bad deeds?”

“Mahāli, greed is a cause for doing bad deeds; hatred is a cause for doing bad deeds; delusion is a cause for doing bad deeds; focussing the mind in the wrong way is a cause for doing bad deeds; a wrongly directed mind is a cause for doing bad deeds. Mahāli, this is the cause and the reason for the doing of bad deeds, for the performing of bad deeds.”

“Venerable Sir, what is the cause, what is the reason for the doing of good deeds, for the performing of good deeds?”

“Mahāli, non-greed is a cause for doing good deeds; non-hatred is a cause for doing good deeds; non-delusion is a cause for doing good deeds; focussing the mind in the right way is a cause for doing good deeds; a rightly directed mind is a cause for doing good deeds. Mahāli, this is the cause and the reason for the doing of good deeds, for the performing of good deeds.

“Mahāli, if these ten principles were not found in the world, then neither unprincipled and inappropriate conduct, nor principled and appropriate conduct would be known. But since these ten principles are found in the world, then both unprincipled and inappropriate conduct, and principled and appropriate conduct are known.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14897
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:35 am

Comments from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.

Bhante, what is the cause and condition for the doing of bad
kamma, for the occurrence of bad kamma?”
    Because of the ambivalence of the word kamma (meaning both
    “a deed” and “the potential for results created by a deed”),
    the question and the reply might also have been formulated in
    terms of “a bad deed.” The same holds below in regard to good
    kamma.


User avatar
Buddha Vacana
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:16 am
Location: Avignon, France
Contact:

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby Buddha Vacana » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:52 am

I find "focussing the mind in the wrong way" to be a strange translation for "ayoniso manasikāra", and somewhat misleading, as I thought first it has to do with samadhi or meditation practice. Ayoniso manasikāra is explained in detail at MN 2:

This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

This doesn't suggest that the person is "focusing", rather that they are confused all over the place. Such considerations often arise in the middle of thought storms.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14897
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:13 am

Thanks for pointing that out. Bhikkhu Bodhi uses the more conventional "careless attention":
“Mahāli, (1) greed is a cause and condition for the doing of
bad kamma, for the occurrence of bad kamma. (2) Hatred is a
cause and condition . . . (3) Delusion is a cause and condition
. . . (4) Careless attention is a cause and condition . . . (5) A
wrongly directed mind is a cause and condition for the doing of
bad kamma, for the occurrence of bad kamma. This is the cause
and condition for the doing of bad kamma, for the occurrence
of bad kamma.”

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14897
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:46 pm

Discussion about the shortcomings of the AN split here:
Objections to the Anguttara Nikaya
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28524&p=407454#p407454

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1161
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:08 am

From the sutta:
“Mahāli, if these ten principles were not found in the world, then neither unprincipled and inappropriate conduct, nor principled and appropriate conduct would be known.
Is the Pali word used here, in translation, for the word "principal" in fact dhamma?

My Pali is poor, but is this the Pali line equivalent to the English translation I posted above?
mahāli, ime dasa dhammā loke saṃvijjanti, tasmā paññāyati adhamma­cari­yā­vi­sama­cari­yāti vā dhamma­cari­yā­sama­cari­yāti vā”ti.


If I knew what the Pali word for "ten" was I could probably pin it down more accurately, but alas I do not.
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14897
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:14 am

Yes,
Yasmā ca kho, mahāli, ime dasa dhammā loke saṃvijjanti, tasmā paññāyati adhamma­cari­yā­vi­sama­cari­yāti vā dhamma­cari­yā­sama­cari­yāti vā”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/pi/an10.47/2.753-

dasa is 10.

You can turn on Pali->English translation from the menu at the top left, under "controls". It's not perfect, but it works. The Chinese translation is better...

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1161
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:26 am

mikenz66 wrote:You can turn on Pali->English translation from the menu at the top left, under "controls". It's not perfect, but it works.
Yeah, I use that to try to pinpoint the words, because I have a decent knowledge of amatuer Sanskrit, and that usually lets me know what word is what, the specifics of the grammar are generally a mystery to me though, and a lot of the phonological changes from Sanskrit to Pali make it hard to guess what a Sanskrit word will look like in Pali. Thats how I could locate the Pali passage, using that feature and Sanskrit.

mikenz66 wrote:The Chinese translation is better...
Can you read classical Chinese? If so, I would love to ask you some questions via PM about some āgama translations I have been working on (on an amateur level).

I wish SuttaCentral could format itself like YellowBridge.

I linked you, and any other readers interested, to a YellowBridge page giving the original Dàodéjīng, in classical Chinese, along with 3 translations by diverse authors. You can literally hover over a given 字 (character) and you have a definition.

The site has its flaws. For instance, the character-definitions it gives are all modern Chinese. It is still difficult to read classical Chinese using the site, because the definitions and usages of words change over time from classical to modern Chinese.

Do you know of any Pali resources like that? If one could simply hover one's mouse over a given word and see a definition from a good Pali dictionary along with the declension and conjugation of a word that would truly be an expedient and wondrous resource.
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14897
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:55 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:The Chinese translation is better...
Can you read classical Chinese? If so, I would love to ask you some questions via PM about some āgama translations I have been working on (on an amateur level).

No, I have almost zero knowledge of Chinese, apart from really basic characters that are handy for locating the correct toilet, for example... I mean that if you go to the Chinese pages on Sutta Central, every character gets translated, whereas for Pali the translation engine fails for quite a few words.

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14897
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:05 am

Coëmgenu wrote:I wish SuttaCentral could format itself like YellowBridge.


Yes http://www.buddha-vacana.org/ does that side-by-side thing.

As I understand it, Sutta Central will be able to do that when Bhante Sujato's translations are complete. The way he is constructing the translations, with Pootle, associates each Pali sentence with an English one. Displaying it is then just a coding problem.
See: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/tr ... yas/341/73 and
sujato, post:5, topic:2282 wrote:The only advantage in side by side viewing is if you can match the exact place in the Pali with the exact place in the translation. But we can't do that anyway, at least until the new translations are ready. When that happens, prepare to be awed …
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/si ... rce/2282/5


:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1161
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:07 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:The Chinese translation is better...
Can you read classical Chinese? If so, I would love to ask you some questions via PM about some āgama translations I have been working on (on an amateur level).

No, I have almost zero knowledge of Chinese, apart from really basic characters that are handy for locating the correct toilet, for example... I mean that if you go to the Chinese pages on Sutta Central, every character gets translated, whereas for Pali the translation engine fails for quite a few words.


I just found out what you meant by the "translation engine".

I haven't had the setting "lookup dictionary is now enabled" set to "on".

This is an amazing resource. I've been navigating blindly for years based on a amateur knowledge of Sanskrit.

The way you activate it, for the purpose of other readers who, like me, have been navigating the translation functions on SuttaCentral via knowledge of Indo-Aryan languages in general and not the full functionality of the site, is this:

1. Click on the 3 lines on the top of the SuttaCental page (the icon in the extreme top-left) while it is displaying any given sutta.
2. Click "controls".
3. Click "textual information"
4. You should now see a message that says: "The lookup dictionary is now enabled. Hover with the mouse to display the meaning."

I navigated SuttaCentral for years without knowing of this feature, thinking that you could only flip between the "raw text" in Pali and a translation in English, not knowing you could hover over the word, exactly like on YellowBridge, and see translations.

This should be made public, should this post be its own thread? I had no idea the site was as robust as this.
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14897
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 10.47 Mahāli Sutta. To Mahāli

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:26 am

I'm sure there is a thread on Sutta Central about it but perhaps we need a prominent thread here, too...

:anjali:
Mike


Return to “Study Group”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine