SN 14.37 Uppāda Sutta. Arising.

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SN 14.37 Uppāda Sutta. Arising.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:00 am

SN 14.37 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta 1. Arising.
Translated by Piya Tan.


http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 7-piya.pdf


1 (The Blessed One was) residing at Sāvatthī.

The four elements
2 “Bhikshus, there are these four elements. What are the four?
The earth element, the water element, the fire element, the wind element.

Not understanding the four elements
3 Bhikshus, those recluses and brahmins who do not understand, according to reality,
the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to these four elements—[176]
I do not regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones do not, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and dwell, here and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood.

Understanding the four elements
4 But, bhikshus, those recluses and brahmins who understand, according to reality,
the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to these four elements—
I regard them as recluses amongst recluses or brahmins amongst brahmins,
and these venerable ones, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, attain and dwell, here and now, in the goal of recluseship or the goal of brahminhood.

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Re: SN 14.37 Uppāda Sutta. Arising.

Post by ToVincent » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:51 pm

The only reference to the four "expressions of manifestation" (element/dhatu); viz. tejodhatu etc - that have parallels in the saṃyutta/samyukta is SN 16.13
“It is not the earth element, Kassapa, that causes the true Dhamma to disappear, nor the water element, nor the heat element, nor the air element. It is the senseless people who arise right here who cause the true Dhamma to disappear.
----
In place of "senseless people", SA 906 speaks about evil people who like to do bad, etc.

I wonder what the purely Theravadan SN 14.37 means by "understand, according to what have become (yathābhūta) (reality)", in regard to these particular dhatus?

Does it have to do with how the four great elements (mahābhūtāna rūpa,) have come to be (bhūta - https://justpaste.it/tvvi). In other words, how (and why,) they have "landed" in nāmarūpa?

Or, does it have to do with the concomitent result of the "dhammaisation" (phenomenalness) of these elements into a satta, with its internal spheres of sense (ajjhatikāni āyatanāni); that generates "gratification, danger, and escape", in regard to these mahābhūtāna rūpa?

The latter is a bit embrangled; compared to the simplicity and profoundness of SN 16.13.
In other words, the danger, etc. is not in the mahābhūtāna rūpa themselves; but in what is made out of the compounding ("dhammaisation") of them - Viz. how the dhamma, that constitute satta with its ajjhatikāni āyatanāni, responds (and intends,) in regard to the different external sensual inputs (bāhirāni āyatanāni).
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
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And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: SN 14.37 Uppāda Sutta. Arising.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:28 am

Piya Tan points out http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 7-piya.pdf that this sutta, along with the many others that talk about
the gratification, the danger, and the escape
are in the pattern of the first three noble truths. However, the order of the first two are reversed, with the cause coming before the danger in this case.

:anjali:
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Re: SN 14.37 Uppāda Sutta. Arising.

Post by SarathW » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:39 am

I wonder why there is no mention about the space element and consciousness element.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: SN 14.37 Uppāda Sutta. Arising.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:47 am

The Elements come in a variety of numerical collections.
See section IX.4 of In the Buddha's Words
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640

From the Introduction to Chapter IX:
http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/buddhas- ... ght-wisdom
IX,4(3) The Elements. The elements are the subject of the Dhātusaṃyutta (Saṃyutta Nikāya, chapter 14). The word “elements” (dhātu) is applied to several quite disparate groups of phenomena, and thus the suttas in this chapter fall into separate clusters with little in common but their concern with entities called elements. The most important groups consist of eighteen, four, and six elements.

The eighteen elements are an elaboration of the twelve sense bases. They consist of the six sense faculties, the six sense objects, and the six types of sense consciousness. Since six types of consciousness have been extracted from the mind base, the mind element that remains must be a simpler type of cognitive event. The Nikāyas do not specify its precise function. The Abhidhamma identifies it with a type of consciousness that fulfills more rudimentary roles in the process of cognition than the more discriminative mind-consciousness element. IX,4(3)(a) contains a simple enumeration of the eighteen elements. Contemplation of these elements helps to dispel the notion that an abiding subject underlies the changing contents of experience. It shows how experience consists of different types of consciousness, each of which is conditioned, arisen in dependence on its own specific sense faculty and object. Thus to ascertain the composite, diversified, conditioned nature of experience dispels the illusion of unity and solidity that ordinarily obscures correct cognition.

The four elements are earth, water, heat, and air. These represent four “behavioral modes” of matter: solidity, fluidity, energy, and distension. The four are inseparably united in any unit of matter, from the smallest to the largest and most complex. The elements are not merely properties of the external world, however, but also of one’s own body. Thus one must contemplate them in relation to one’s body, as the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta teaches (see Text VIII, 8 §12). The three suttas combined in Text IX,4(3)(b) show that these elements can be viewed: as impermanent and conditioned; from the triple standpoint of gratification, danger, and escape; and by way of the four-truth pattern.

The six elements include the four physical elements, the space element, and the element of consciousness. Text IX,4(3)(c), a long excerpt from MN 140, explains in detail how to contemplate the six elements in relation to the physical body, the external world, and conscious experience.
:anjali:
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