AN 4.102: Valahaka Sutta — Thunderheads

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

Moderator: mikenz66

Locked
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15173
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

AN 4.102: Valahaka Sutta — Thunderheads

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:40 am

AN 4.102 PTS: A ii 103 Valahaka Sutta: Thunderheads
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


Reading suttas is good, but there is more to be done. Go meditate!

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"There are these four types of thunderheads. Which four? One that thunders but doesn't rain, one that rains but doesn't thunder, one that neither thunders nor rains, and one that both thunders and rains. These are the four types of thunderheads.

"In the same way, these four types of persons resembling thunderheads are to be found existing in the world. Which four? The one that thunders but doesn't rain, the one that rains but doesn't thunder, the one that neither thunders nor rains, and the one that both thunders and rains.

"And how is one the type of person who thunders but doesn't rain? There is the case where a person has mastered the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions.[1] Yet he doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.' He doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress.' He doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is the cessation of stress.' He doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is the type of person who thunders but doesn't rain. This type of person, I tell you, is like the thunderhead that thunders but doesn't rain.

"And how is one the type of person who rains but doesn't thunder? There is the case where a person has not mastered the Dhamma: dialogues... question & answer sessions. Yet he does discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.' He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress.' He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'This is the cessation of stress.' He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is the type of person who rains but doesn't thunder. This type of person, I tell you, is like the thunderhead that rains but doesn't thunder.

"And how is one the type of person who neither thunders nor rains? There is the case where a person has not mastered the Dhamma: dialogues... question & answer sessions. He doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.' ... 'This is the origination of stress.' ... 'This is the cessation of stress.' ... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is the type of person who neither thunders nor rains. This type of person, I tell you, is like the thunderhead that neither thunders nor rains.

"And how is one the type of person who both thunders and rains? There is the case where a person has mastered the Dhamma: dialogues... question & answer sessions. He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.' ... 'This is the origination of stress.' ... 'This is the cessation of stress.' ... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is the type of person who both thunders and rains. This type of person, I tell you, is like the thunderhead that both thunders and rains.

"There are these four types of people to be found existing in the world."

Notes

1. The earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15173
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 4.102: Valahaka Sutta — Thunderheads

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:58 am

This is the start of a new section in Bhikkhu Bodhi's Thematic Guide: "The ninefold textual Dhamma".

From Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.
  • “Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of clouds. What four? The one that thunders but does not rain; the one that rains but does not thunder; the one that neither thunders nor rains; and the one that both thunders and rains. These are the four kinds of clouds. So too, there are these four kinds of persons similar to clouds found existing in the world. What four? The one who thunders but does not rain; the one who rains but does not thunder; the one who neither thunders nor rains; and the one who both thunders and rains.

    (1) “And how, bhikkhus, is a person one who thunders but does not rain? Here, someone masters the Dhamma—the discourses, mixed prose and verse, expositions, verses, inspired utterances, quotations, birth stories, amazing accounts, and questions-and-answers [792]—but he does not understand as it really is: ‘This is suffering,’ and ‘This is the origin of suffering,’ and ‘This is the cessation of suffering,’ and ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’
Note [792] refers back to AN 4.6, where this phrase appears. Bhikkhu Bodhi notes:
In Pāli: suttaṃ, geyyaṃ, veyyākaraṇaṇ, gāthā, udānaṃ, itivuttakaṃ, jātakaṃ, abbhutadhammaṃ, vedallaṃ. This is the early ninefold division of the Dhamma, eventually superseded by the arrangement of the texts into the five Nikāyas.

See Norman 1983: 15–16; Norman 2006a: 172–73.

Mp, in line with other commentaries, gives examples of each genre, not all of which would be approved by modern scholarship. It is a disputed question whether some items in the list refer to collections that already existed in the Buddha’s time or to prototypes on the basis of which the present collections were established. Present scholarly opinion leans toward the latter.
:anjali:
Mike

SarathW
Posts: 8123
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: AN 4.102: Valahaka Sutta — Thunderheads

Post by SarathW » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:04 am

This is a good Sutta.
I was pondering about this just a minute ago.
How do you discern this Dhamma?
Where it says meditation will get you there?
Meditation on what? We already know intellectually what is Dukkha etc.
But it never get to the head! Just only the thunder no rain. :)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 8123
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: AN 4.102: Valahaka Sutta — Thunderheads

Post by SarathW » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:42 pm

Major reason why, we can't discern Dhamma is due to delusion (Vipalassa) of perception, thoughts and views.

- I understand the impermanence. But I think I will live till 80 years so another 20 years before my death. So I am ignorant to accepts the fact that it is possible I dies before I finish typing this sentence.
- I understand Dukkha. But I do not see the Dukkha of typing this sentence.
- I understand Anatta as a theory but I still have some attachment, aversion or ignorance in regard to five aggregate, even when I type this.
- I see the impurity as purity. Even if I am 80 years old I still think I can find a 75 year old beautiful woman. :shrug:
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests