AN 4.29 Dhammapada, AN 4.30 Paribbājaka

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AN 4.29 Dhammapada, AN 4.30 Paribbājaka

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:36 am

AN 4.29 [AN ii 29] Dhammapada Sutta: Dhamma Factors
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


http://suttacentral.net/en/an4.29

"Bhikkhus, there are these four Dhamma factors, primal, of long standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated and never before adulterated, which are not being adulterated and will not be adulterated, which are not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins. What four?

(1) “Non-longing is a Dhamma factor, primal, of long standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated and never before adulterated, which is not being adulterated and will not be adulterated, which is not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins. (2) Good will is a Dhamma factor, primal, of long standing … (3) Right mindfulness is a Dhamma factor, primal, of long standing … (4) Right concentration is a Dhamma factor, primal, of long standing … not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins.

“These are the four Dhamma factors, primal, of long standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated and never before adulterated, which are not being adulterated and will not be adulterated, which are not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins.”
  • One should dwell free from longing
    with a heart of good will.
    One should be mindful and one-pointed in mind,
    internally well concentrated.

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Re: AN 4.29 Dhammapada, AN 4.30 Paribbājaka

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:37 am

AN 4.30 [AN ii 29] Paribbājaka Sutta: Wanderers
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


http://suttacentral.net/en/an4.30

On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Rājagaha on Mount Vulture Peak. Now on that occasion a number of very well-known wanderers were residing at the wanderers’ park on the bank of the river Sappinī, namely, Annabhāra, Varadhara, Sakuludāyī the wanderer, and other very well-known wanderers.

Then, in the evening, the Blessed One emerged from seclusion and went to the wanderers’ park on the bank of the Sappinī. He sat down on a seat that was prepared and said to those wanderers: “Wanderers, there are these four Dhamma factors [683] that are primal, of long standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated and never before adulterated, which are not being adulterated and will not be adulterated, which are not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins. What four?

(1) “Non-longing is a Dhamma factor that is primal, of long standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated and never before adulterated, which is not being adulterated and will not be adulterated, which is not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins. (2) Good will is a Dhamma factor that is primal, of long standing … (3) Right mindfulness is a Dhamma factor that is primal, of long standing … (4) Right concentration is a Dhamma factor that is primal, of long standing … not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins.

“These are the four Dhamma factors that are primal, of long standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated and never before adulterated, which are not being adulterated and will not be adulterated, which are not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins.

(1) “If, wanderers, anyone should say: ‘I will reject this Dhamma factor of non-longing and point out a real ascetic or brahmin who is full of longing, deeply passionate about sensual pleasures,’ I would respond to him thus: ‘Let him come, speak, and converse. Let me see how mighty he is!’ Indeed, it would be impossible for him to reject non-longing as a Dhamma factor and to point out a real ascetic or brahmin who is full of longing, deeply passionate about sensual pleasures.

(2) “If anyone should say: ‘I will reject this Dhamma factor of good will and point out a real ascetic or brahmin who has a mind of ill will and intentions of hate,’ I would respond to him thus: ‘Let him come, speak, and converse. Let me see how mighty he is!’ Indeed, it would be impossible for him to reject good will as a Dhamma factor and to point out a real ascetic or brahmin who has a mind of ill will and intentions of hate.

(3) “If anyone should say: ‘I will reject this Dhamma factor of right mindfulness and point out a real ascetic or brahmin who is muddled in mind and lacks clear comprehension,’ I would respond to him thus: ‘Let him come, speak, and converse. Let me see how mighty he is!’ Indeed, it would be impossible for him to reject right mindfulness as a Dhamma factor and to point out a real ascetic or brahmin who is muddled in mind and lacks clear comprehension.

(4) “If anyone should say: ‘I will reject this Dhamma factor of right concentration and point out a real ascetic or brahmin who is unconcentrated, with a wandering mind,’ I would respond to him thus: ‘Let him come, speak, and converse. Let me see how mighty he is!’ Indeed, it would be impossible for him to reject right concentration as a Dhamma factor and to point out a real ascetic or brahmin who is unconcentrated, with a wandering mind.

“If, wanderers, anyone thinks these four Dhamma factors should be censured and repudiated, then, in this very life, he incurs four reasonable criticisms and grounds for censure. [684] What four?

“‘If you censure and repudiate this Dhamma factor of non-longing, then you must regard as worthy of worship and praise those ascetics and brahmins who are full of longing and deeply passionate about sensual pleasures. If you censure and repudiate this Dhamma factor of good will, then you must regard as worthy of worship and praise those ascetics and brahmins who have minds of ill will and intentions of hate. If you censure and repudiate this Dhamma factor of right mindfulness, then you must regard as worthy of worship and praise those ascetics and brahmins who are muddle-minded and lack clear comprehension. If you censure and repudiate this Dhamma factor of right concentration, then you must regard as worthy of worship and praise those ascetics and brahmins who are unconcentrated, with wandering minds.’

“If, wanderers, anyone thinks these four Dhamma factors should be censured and repudiated, then, in this very life, he incurs these four reasonable criticisms and grounds for censure. Even those wanderers Vassa and Bhañña of Ukkalā, who were proponents of non-causality, inactivity, and nihilism, did not think that these four Dhamma factors should be censured and repudiated. For what reason? From fear of blame, attack, and refutation.” [685]
  • One of good will, ever mindful,
    inwardly well concentrated,
    training to remove longing,
    is said to be heedful.
Notes

[683] Mp: “Portions of Dhamma” (dhammakoṭṭhāsā).

[684] Kacci te bhoto gotamassa vuttavādino ca bhavantaṃ gotamaṃ abhūtena abbhācikkhanti, dhammassa cānudhammaṃ byākaronti, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṃ ṭhānaṃ āgacchati. So all three editions, but some variants have vādānuvādo in place of vādānupāto. I have discussed the formula in detail in CDB, p. 747, note 72, but I now believe that the Pāli commentaries err in taking vādānupāta (or vādānuvāda) to mean “consequence of their assertion.” I now take this term to be simply a synonym of gārayhaṃ ṭhānaṃ.” In support of this change, see 5:5, where sahadhammikā vādānuvādā gārayhā ṭhānā āgacchanti and its opposite, sahadhammikā pāsaṃsā ṭhānā āgacchanti, occur without reference to any prior assertion. Chinese parallels to the present sutta support this interpretation. SĀ 95 (at T II 26a11–14), reads: (“How is it? Gotama, does one who says this speak truthfully? Is it the case that he does not misrepresent Gotama? Does he speak in accordance with what was said, in accordance with the Dharma, in line with the Dharma, so that other people cannot criticize him in terms of that same Dharma?”). Another parallel at T II 493b19–21 is similar, with nothing that corresponds to “consequence of an assertion.

[685] These two wanderers are also mentioned at MN 117.38, III 78,13,
"Bhikkhus, even those teachers from Okkala, Vassa and Bhañña, who held the doctrine of non-causality, the doctrine of non-doing, and the doctrine of nihilism, would not think that this Dhamma discourse on the Great Forty should be censured and rejected. Why is that? For fear of blame, attack, and confutation.”
and SN 22:62, III 73,3.
"Bhikkhus, even Vassa and Bañña of Ukkala, proponents of noncausality, of the inefficacy of action, and of nihilism, did not think that these three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description should be criticized or scorned. For what reason? Because they fear blame, attack, and condemnation.”
We do not have more information about them than what is said here

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Re: AN 4.19 Dhammapada, AN 4.30 Paribbājaka

Post by chownah » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:34 am

From AN 4.30 [AN ii 29] Paribbājaka Sutta: Wanderers Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
Wanderers, there are these four Dhamma factors [683] that are primal, of long standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated and never before adulterated, which are not being adulterated and will not be adulterated, which are not repudiated by wise ascetics and brahmins. What four?
------------------
From AN 4.28 PTS: A ii 27 Ariya-vamsa Sutta: The Discourse on the Traditions of the Noble Ones translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
These four traditions of the Noble Ones — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and are unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives and brahmans. Which four?
-----------------
I was struck by the similar structure of the two introductions and that they both seem to be talking about core factors which seem to be being defined in a way that goes beyond Buddist teachings. Is this a start of a development of a non buddhist path or something similar?
chownah

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Re: AN 4.29 Dhammapada, AN 4.30 Paribbājaka

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:28 pm

Thanks Chownah for the reference to AN 4.28, also Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.

Could you elaborate on how these suttas are "about core factors which seem to be being defined in a way that goes beyond Buddist teachings"?

:anjali:
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Re: AN 4.29 Dhammapada, AN 4.30 Paribbājaka

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:42 pm

By beyond buddhist teachings I mean that these things are universally accepted as is clear by the statements I presented and not just accepted by buddhists.

By core factors I mean things which are central to practice and progress on the path.

It seems to me that these undisputed things can form the basis for a practice even in the absence of buddhism.

Not sure if this explains much......I could get wordier I suppose but I think the idea is fairly simple but maybe not.

Also, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any other suttas which present the same sort of introduction.....I'd like to make a list of all the ancient undisputed things mentioned in the sutta to see what can be made of it.
chownah

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Re: AN 4.19 Dhammapada, AN 4.30 Paribbājaka

Post by daverupa » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:18 pm

chownah wrote:Is this a start of a development of a non buddhist path or something similar?
I expect it's part of the pre-existing Wanderer traditions, which included such things as paccekabuddhas. The Brahmaviharas also probably predate the Buddha's teaching career, as part of the cultural surround.

The Buddha took this fertile environment and skillfully employed language to communicate the Dhamma, and this twinning of the Dhamma with the Samana-Bahmana cultural worldview & its terms for purposes of viable 'modern' textual transmission renders many artifacts such as this, I wager.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: AN 4.29 Dhammapada, AN 4.30 Paribbājaka

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:19 pm

chownah wrote:By beyond buddhist teachings I mean that these things are universally accepted as is clear by the statements I presented and not just accepted by buddhists.
Thanks for the clarification. I think that's true. The "extras" of the Buddha's Dhamma (not-self, dependent origination, etc), don't negate the necessity for the development of "unversal" factors, such as generosity, sila, concentration...

:anjali:
Mike

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