Nicolas wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pmThe sutta points out that Yamaka's view is wrong because there is no such thing as an arahant "entity" to be annihilated and destroyed, it is simply the aggregates (which are anicca & dukkha) which cease and end. There is no arahant "entity" connected to the aggregates or disconnected to the aggregates; there is no such "entity" anywhere, so there is no arahant "entity" to be annihilated or destroyed at the break-up of the body.
Nicolas wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pmThe puthujjana imagines a "self", an "entity" connected to the aggregates, and through this ignorance,
identification, and craving, there is
picking up of another configuration of the aggregates after the break-up of the body
Above makes it sound like "identification" and "picking up" (upādiyati in MN 144) are different things.
Yo kho sāriputta,imañca kāyaṃ nikkhipati. Aññaṃ ca kāyaṃ upādiyati, tamahaṃ saupavajjo'ti vadāmi.
MN 144
Nicolas wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pmand self-perpetuation of the ignorance, identification, and craving.
Also, the above makes it sounds like "puthujjana" and "self-perpetuation" is a "self" that "picks up" another configuration of the aggregates.
Nicolas wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pmThe sutta applies to the puthujjana in the sense that there is ultimately no "entity" that dies, but also doesn't apply in the sense that there is perpetuation of ignorance, identification, and craving; perpetuation of the illusion of identity -- and so still perpetuation of dukkha; perpetuation. It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy (pun intended).
The sutta ultimately concludes with an answer to the original question, namely: "
Each aggregate is impermanent & unsatisfactory and what is impermanent & unsatisfactory comes to an end".
The answer in the sutta actually does not mention if the aggregates are undefiled or not. Its only
the (wrong)
question that mentions an undefiled arahant. Are you saying if the life of a puthujjana ends, it cannot be viewed as merely the ending of aggregates
? For example, if the life of my mother or father end, how can I extinguish sorrow if I don't view those aggregates (conventionally called "mother" & '"father") as mere impermanent not-self aggregates?
If there is the view "mother" & "father" are "puthujjana mother & father" then this sounds like a "self-view". Then with this view, arises other views, such as: "
I remember when my mother hit me as a child with a stick. Will she be reborn in hell because of her anger & violence towards me?" Then the mind will start to worry about the rebirth of puthujjana mother & puthujjana father. How can suffering end in this situation?