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are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:01 pm
by budo
Do the animals that kill, such as lions,tigers,snakes,scorpions,sharks,crocodiles,eagles,hawks,hyenas,etc.. are they reborn in hell?

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:32 pm
by PeterB
Perhaps they already have been.

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:44 pm
by Taco
I believe that a tiger that has during its lifetime a mind state of an average tiger will likely be reborn as a tiger. And they were born as tigers in the first place because that was close to their mind state in the previous life. Very difficult for a tiger to be a 'good' tiger or a 'bad' tiger.

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:48 pm
by budo
PeterB wrote:Perhaps they already have been.
So does that mean they will return to hell again once they kill again? Like an infinite loop, if they become a crocodile, they go back to hell, then are reborn as a tiger, go back to hell. This only stops when they are reborn as a non killing creature?

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:50 pm
by budo
Taco wrote:I believe that a tiger that has during its lifetime a mind state of an average tiger will likely be reborn as a tiger. And they were born as tigers in the first place because that was close to their mind state in the previous life. Very difficult for a tiger to be a 'good' tiger or a 'bad' tiger.
So what if one is reborn as a human that is in a cannibalistic society, and it is "average" for people to kill each other and eat each other, does that mean they will be reborn as cannibals?

So karma is then relative to society?

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:50 pm
by PeterB
I dont think in such literal terms Budo.

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:52 pm
by budo
PeterB wrote:I dont think in such literal terms Budo.
Does that mean you hunt? If you do not think in literal terms, then do you act in literal terms?

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:08 pm
by Taco
budo wrote:
Taco wrote:I believe that a tiger that has during its lifetime a mind state of an average tiger will likely be reborn as a tiger. And they were born as tigers in the first place because that was close to their mind state in the previous life. Very difficult for a tiger to be a 'good' tiger or a 'bad' tiger.
So what if one is reborn as a human that is in a cannibalistic society, and it is "average" for people to kill each other and eat each other, does that mean they will be reborn as cannibals?

So karma is then relative to society?
More is expected from humans because of their higher intelligence and sense of morality. If that would be how all humans behaved, humans would be just an other species of savage animals, with no understanding of right and wrong. And Gotama as bodhisatta would still be in the heavens waiting for a better time and more developed species on earth.

Just my own speculations... :)

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:11 pm
by budo
Taco wrote:
budo wrote:
Taco wrote:I believe that a tiger that has during its lifetime a mind state of an average tiger will likely be reborn as a tiger. And they were born as tigers in the first place because that was close to their mind state in the previous life. Very difficult for a tiger to be a 'good' tiger or a 'bad' tiger.
So what if one is reborn as a human that is in a cannibalistic society, and it is "average" for people to kill each other and eat each other, does that mean they will be reborn as cannibals?

So karma is then relative to society?
More is expected from humans because of their higher intelligence and sense of morality. If that would be how all humans behaved, humans would be just an other species of savage animals, with no understanding of right and wrong. And Gotama as bodhisatta would still be in the heavens waiting for a better time and more developed species on earth.

Just my own speculations... :)
This is reasonable, but that means that karma is controlled by something intelligent. Something intelligent enough to know "this species is not capable of high intelligence, therefore it will be reborn in the same plane".

Maybe the question I am asking cannot be answered, as perhaps the inner workings of karma is unknowable.

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:51 pm
by Taco
Kamma is intention and I think it's different from instinct. The actions of higher beings are more about intentions and the actions of lower beings are more about instincts. Instincts don't produce kammic consequences and the lower beings have to wait for a lottery jackpot to be reborn in the higher planes of existence. I trust that they filled out some coupons in their countless previous lives. Not sure though if any of this is the correct Theravada view. :lol:
Chiggala Sutta: The Hole
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:19 pm
by cooran
Hello all,

It might be worthwhile to read the Causes of different rebirths as taught in the Suttas by the Buddha:

Rebirth
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... ml#rebirth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:20 pm
by BubbaBuddhist
Image

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:06 pm
by Annapurna
budo wrote:
Maybe the question I am asking cannot be answered, as perhaps the inner workings of karma is unknowable.
Quite so, I think, Budo.

The Buddha said we should not think about the intricate details of kamma too much, -only a supreme Buddha can see it clearly.

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:43 pm
by Ben
Without intending to derail this thread, I think a far more pressing question is "what do I need to do to be saved from a future rebirth in hell - or any of the woeful realms?"

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:38 pm
by Annapurna
You are right, and we have a clear message too. :smile:

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:59 pm
by BubbaBuddhist
I was thinking along the same lines as Ben. While I have concern about the future of my cats, I can't do much to prevent them from being cats. But I can do all I can to try not to be reborn in the woeful states.

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:40 am
by octathlon
Is a cat that is kept indoors or otherwise prevented from killing animals better off than a cat that is left outside where it will naturally do so?

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:36 am
by plwk
Is a cat that is kept indoors or otherwise prevented from killing animals better off than a cat that is left outside where it will naturally do so?
They will still smack the cockroaches, lizards, ants, spiders and occasionally the other dog/cat that doesn't comply with the TOS :tongue:

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:55 am
by ground
budo wrote:Do the animals that kill, such as lions,tigers,snakes,scorpions,sharks,crocodiles,eagles,hawks,hyenas,etc.. are they reborn in hell?
If there would be a "deed as such" that would be the cause to be reborn in hell then yes, but it is the mental context of deeds that is crucial. And since humans do not know the mental context of other species the consequences of deeds of animals are hidded for humans. Even the consequences of deeds of humans would be hidden for humans if the Buddha would not have taught them.
The Buddha's teachings refer to the sphere of humans (not animals). Why? Because he taught the means for humans to liberate themselves.

Kind regards

Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:58 am
by budo
plwk wrote:
Is a cat that is kept indoors or otherwise prevented from killing animals better off than a cat that is left outside where it will naturally do so?
They will still smack the cockroaches, lizards, ants, spiders and occasionally the other dog/cat that doesn't comply with the TOS :tongue:
So if animals are allowed to kill animals without much karmic consequence because it's merely instinct and not intent, then would it be okay to have a few cats around to protect humans from pests or dangerous critters?