Kindness higher than noble friendship?

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Hanzze
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Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:08 am

What do Theravadin think?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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retrofuturist
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:25 am

Greetings Hanzze,

Would it be worth specifying the Pali terms that correspond with what you think we ought to be comparing?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Hanzze
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:42 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Hanzze
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:03 am

Avera (not Anuggaha) vs. Mittatta

Being just avera (kindly, friendly) vs. searching or acting for mittatā (kalyana mittata) (kusala/heal full friendship)

No post without learning, thanks!
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

plwk
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by plwk » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:07 am

What do Theravadin think?
They don't stop at thinking, they show it... :tongue:
The former is a great start and foundation to the latter, no higher or lower :thumbsup:

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Hanzze
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:13 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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retrofuturist
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:31 am

Greetings Hanzze,

I see metta as kindness... it's often translated into English as loving-kindness.

What is interesting too though, is that I struggle to conceive of any form of noble friendship that isn't based on metta / kindness... so to me they don't seem like things that are in conflict, one is just a potential consequence of the other.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Hanzze
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:42 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Sanghamitta
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by Sanghamitta » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:45 am

The Buddha said that friendship was not half, but all of spiritual life.
Samyutta Nikaya 2.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

rowyourboat
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by rowyourboat » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:37 pm

What about the kindness that uses harsh words to set someone off on the right path?
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Hanzze
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:35 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

dhammapal
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by dhammapal » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:50 am

Hi,

The following sutta for protection from snakes illustrates that metta means good will rather than wanting to have a nice, loving relationship.
I have good will for footless beings, good will for two-footed beings, good will for four-footed beings, good will for many-footed beings.
May footless beings do me no harm. May two-footed beings do me no harm. May four-footed beings do me no harm. May many-footed beings do me no harm.
May all creatures, all breathing things, all beings — each & every one — meet with good fortune.
May none of them come to any evil.
Limitless is the Buddha, limitless the Dhamma, limitless the Sangha. There is a limit to creeping things: snakes, scorpions, centipedes, spiders, lizards, & rats.
I have made this safeguard, I have made this protection.
May the beings depart.
I pay homage to the Blessed One, homage to the seven rightly self-awakened ones.
From: Ahina Sutta translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
For Thanissaro Bhikkhu’s audio on this sutta see the first two minutes then for goodwill generally the first 15 minutes of
June 26 Early PM Lecture Q & A
http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Retr ... Audio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From: Audio Downloads & Resources for Thanissaro Bhikkhu's June 2010 Saskatchewan Retreat on "The Ten Perfections"

With metta / dhammapal.

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Hanzze
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by Hanzze » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:45 am

Exzellent Exzellent Exzellent
_/\_
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Hoo
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by Hoo » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:22 pm

Hanzze wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:What about the kindness that uses harsh words to set someone off on the right path?
I guess to push one is not possible from a theravada view :-) But a good quote!
That kind of "kindness" I would call an act of karuna :-)

Just my opinions!
JMO, but chosing harshness is an act of "I," deciding that "I" know the path "better" than "someone else," and have a right or duty to set them straight (or can even do that). Looks like a great deal of I/ME/MINE making, judging, and justification of a view. Even between very good friends or in a teacher/student relationship, I believe harsh words may indicate a rising passion, not a clear choice in line with dispassion, detachment, renunciation, etc.

Abstain from harsh speech. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Hoo - NOT stirring the pot, just presenting what I understand.

rowyourboat
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Re: Kindness higher than noble friendship?

Post by rowyourboat » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:53 pm

"Come now, prince. Go to Gotama the contemplative and on arrival say this: 'Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?' If Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how is there any difference between you, lord, and run-of-the-mill people? For even run-of-the-mill people say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others.' But if Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, lord, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at those words of yours.' When Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up. Just as if a two-horned chestnut[1] were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the same way, when Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up."

Responding, "As you say, venerable sir," Prince Abhaya got up from his seat, bowed down to Nigantha Nataputta, circumambulated him, and then went to the Blessed One. On arrival, he bowed down to the Blessed One and sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he glanced up at the sun and thought, "Today is not the time to refute the Blessed One's words. Tomorrow in my own home I will overturn the Blessed One's words." So he said to the Blessed One, "May the Blessed One, together with three others, acquiesce to my offer of tomorrow's meal."

The Blessed One acquiesced with silence.

Then Prince Abhaya, understanding the Blessed One's acquiescence, got up from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One, circumambulated him, and left.

Then, after the night had passed, the Blessed One early in the morning put on his robes and, carrying his bowl and outer robe, went to Prince Abhaya's home. On arrival, he sat down on a seat made ready. Prince Abhaya, with his own hand, served & satisfied the Blessed One with fine staple & non-staple foods. Then, when the Blessed One had eaten and had removed his hand from his bowl, Prince Abhaya took a lower seat and sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?"

"Prince, there is no categorical yes-or-no answer to that."

"Then right here, lord, the Niganthas are destroyed."

"But prince, why do you say, 'Then right here, lord, the Niganthas are destroyed'?"

"Just yesterday, lord, I went to Nigantha Nataputta and... he said to me...'Come now, prince. Go to Gotama the contemplative and on arrival say this: "Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?"... Just as if a two-horned chestnut were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the same way, when Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up.'"

Now at that time a baby boy was lying face-up on the prince's lap. So the Blessed One said to the prince, "What do you think, prince: If this young boy, through your own negligence or that of the nurse, were to take a stick or a piece of gravel into its mouth, what would you do?"

"I would take it out, lord. If I couldn't get it out right away, then holding its head in my left hand and crooking a finger of my right, I would take it out, even if it meant drawing blood. Why is that? Because I have sympathy for the young boy."

"In the same way, prince:

[1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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