What is Delusion?

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O'seeker
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What is Delusion?

Post by O'seeker » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:53 pm

Thoughts and of greed, hatred, and delusion are supposed to be removed.

What exactly is delusion and how is it supposed to be removed?
:coffee:

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Hanzze
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:02 pm

Dear O'seeker,
with wisdom I guess.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Hanzze
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:19 pm

ohh, I forgot the tool for develop it (wisdom): Sati
Passion is a something, aversion a something, delusion a something. For a monk whose fermentations are ended these have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. To the extent that there are nothingness awareness-releases, the unprovokable awareness-release is declared supreme. And that unprovokable awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion.

"Passion is a making of themes, aversion a making of themes, delusion a making of themes. For a monk whose fermentations are ended these have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. To the extent that there are themeless awareness-releases, the unprovokable awareness-release is declared supreme. And that unprovokable awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Goofaholix
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by Goofaholix » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:36 pm

O'seeker wrote:What exactly is delusion and how is it supposed to be removed?
It's confusion, wrong view, self view, doubt, mistaking concepts as reality. Basically anything that muddies or confuses how one interprets ones reality.

If you have to ask what is is it's a sure sign it's there.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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cooran
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by cooran » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:50 pm

Hello O'seeker, all,

Delusion is also known as Ignorance.

Avijjā: Ignorance, nescience, the blindness of not knowing, is synonymous with confusion moha (see mūla), is the primary & deepest root of all evil and suffering in the world, veiling man's mental eyes and preventing him from seeing the true nature of things. It is the confusion that fools beings by making life appear to them as permanent, happy, substantial and beautiful and preventing them from seeing that everything in reality is impermanent, liable to suffering, void of 'I' and 'mine', and basically impure see: vipallāsa. Ignorance is defined as not knowing the Four Noble Truths, namely, suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the way to its ceasing see: S. XII, 4.

As ignorance is the foundation of all life-maintaining actions, and the root of all evil and suffering, it therefore stands first in the formula of Dependent Origination paticca-samuppāda. But for that reason, says Vis.M XVII, 36f ignorance should not be regarded as the causeless root-cause of the world, since is not causeless.
The cause of it is stated thus: With the arising of mental fermentations āsava there is the arising of ignorance M. 9. But there is a figurative way in which it can be treated as a root-cause; namely, when it is made to serve as a starting point in an exposition of the Round of Existence... As it is said: No first beginning of ignorance can be perceived, Bhikkhus, before which ignorance was not, and after which it came to be. But it can be perceived that ignorance has its specific causal condition idappaccaya A. X, 61. The same statement is made A. X, 62 about the craving for existence bhava-tanhā (see tanhā). Craving and ignorance are called the outstanding causes or creators of the kamma that lead to unhappy and happy destinies Vis.M XVII, 38.

As ignorance still exists though in a very refined way until the attainment of Arahatship, it is counted as the last of the 10 mental chains samyojana, which bind beings to the cycle of rebirths. As the first two roots of evil, greed and hate (see: mūla), are on their part rooted in ignorance, consequently all disadvantageous states of mind are inseparably bound up with ignorance. Ignorance or confusion is the most obstinate , dense, deep, subtle, hidden and fearsome of the three roots of evil.

Ignorance is one of the fermentations āsava and latent tendencies anusaya. It is often called a hindrance nīvarana e.g. in S.XV, 3; A.X, 61 but does not appear together with the usual list of five hindrances. It is however immanent in them all, yet especially dominant in doubt & uncertainty vicikicchā.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... .htm#avijj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;ā

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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by Viscid » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:14 pm

Ignorance gets a bad rap. Too many people see it as dualistic, in opposition to enlightenment.. but that isn't really the case. The transistion from ignorance to Truth is enlightenment, so to ignorance we owe a great deal.
Last edited by Viscid on Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by bodom » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:21 pm

What exactly is delusion and how is it supposed to be removed?


You reminded me of this story about Ajahn Chah:
Someone commented, "I can observe desire and aversion in my mind, but it’s hard to observe delusion."

"You’re riding on a horse and asking where the horse is?" was Ajahn Chah’s reply.


:anjali:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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Viscid
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by Viscid » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:23 pm

Mr. Arahant wrote:"You’re riding on a horse and asking where the horse is?" was Ajahn Chah’s reply.

God he was such a badass.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Jason
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by Jason » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:48 pm

O'seeker wrote:Thoughts and of greed, hatred, and delusion are supposed to be removed.

What exactly is delusion and how is it supposed to be removed?
:coffee:
Delusions (moha) and ignorance (avijja) are basically synonymous. They both refer to a lack of knowledge, specifically of the four noble truths, and through the practice we eventually replace our ignorance with 'knowledge and vision of things as they are (yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana).
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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IanAnd
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by IanAnd » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:36 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
O'seeker wrote:What exactly is delusion and how is it supposed to be removed?
It's confusion, wrong view, self view, doubt, mistaking concepts as reality. Basically anything that muddies or confuses how one interprets one's reality.
:thumbsup: Best definition award, this one!

Of course, all these refer simultaneously both to knowledge of the Dhamma and as it relates to phenomena in mundane life.
Goofaholix wrote:If you have to ask what is is it's a sure sign it's there.
Which goes along with Ajahn Chah's quote: "You’re riding on a horse and asking where the horse is?" I.e.: If you have to ask where the horse is, this assumes that you don't know and that you're in delusion, or at best confused.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by andre9999 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:59 pm

bodom wrote:
You reminded me of this story about Ajahn Chah:
Someone commented, "I can observe desire and aversion in my mind, but it’s hard to observe delusion."

"You’re riding on a horse and asking where the horse is?" was Ajahn Chah’s reply.
I don't get it. I feel like someone just hit me with a Koan.

Can someone explain this to me, or give me a hint?

Thanks,
Andre

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Goofaholix
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by Goofaholix » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:08 pm

andrer9999 wrote:I don't get it. I feel like someone just hit me with a Koan.

Can someone explain this to me, or give me a hint?
It's like "If you have to ask the price you can't afford it".

So if you have to ask what delusion is then that's a sure sign of delusion. Don't be discouraged we're all deluded or we'd all be enlightened, noticing that delusion and seeing it for what it is is one of the steps towards freedom.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Hanzze
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by Hanzze » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:19 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Laurens
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by Laurens » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:09 am

Delusion is wrong views and is to be removed by replacing them with the right ones.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

rowyourboat
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Re: What is Delusion?

Post by rowyourboat » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:39 am

Goofaholix wrote:
O'seeker wrote:What exactly is delusion and how is it supposed to be removed?
It's confusion, wrong view, self view, doubt, mistaking concepts as reality. Basically anything that muddies or confuses how one interprets ones reality.

If you have to ask what is is it's a sure sign it's there.
Hi Goofaholix,

Interesting reply. Care to clarify the 'mud' and the 'confusion' a bit more??

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