beeblebrox wrote:I have not done much interpretation, either (if at all.) The only thing I've pointed out (so far, and including that posting about the future beings) was how some people in here seem to try bend this thing to their own incompatible views.
There is a reason why it's said that the first thing one should set up is the so-called Right View. This doesn't literally mean that you have a view that is absolutely right... only that you have an understanding that is in line with the system that is contained within the Dhamma. This is obviously necessary for one to benefit the most from it.
1. I challenge you to find textual justification for your interpretation that Right View means taking descriptions of geophysics in the suttas on faith (even when they are contradicted by the evidence)
2. I'm a free-thinker. I don't take believe everything that the Suttas say without question.
3. Get used to it.
beeblebrox wrote:The same is true for science. If you don't have a correct view of what the science does... such as what its system is; what its limitations are; what it's best used for; and (this is very important) the way it describes things... such as, the word "wave" doesn't literally mean the ripples that an ocean makes, when it refers to things like gravity... if you don't have a correct view of these, then you really will not get far in science.
You've been trying to bend the Dhamma towards the science, and its terminology, to try show its error. You might deny this, but that is exactly what you've been doing in here. You're bending these words to your own understanding, based on science, the vocabulary that you're familiar with, (and whatever books you've been reading, apparently)... not Dhamma. That is why this thing seemed wrong to you.
Hardly. And for all your verbiage there is only one reality. Whether it is described in scientific or religious terms, either the earth is flat or it isn't. Here is the text in question again:
"This great earth, Ananda, is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. And when, Ananda, mighty atmospheric disturbances take place, the liquid is agitated. And with the agitation of the liquid, tremors of the earth arise. This is the first reason, the first cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes." (Digha Nikaya 16)
The key facts stated by the Buddha here are as follows:
1. The earth is above liquid
2. The liquid is above atmosphere
3. The atmosphere is above space
4. Atmospheric disturbances cause the liquid to be agitated
5. Agitated liquid causes the earth to tremor which is the explanation of earthquakes
The most obvious thing to note is that we know that (whatever the liquid, atmosphere and space refer to) this is not how earthquakes are caused. Earthquakes are caused by the friction of when tectonic plates slip against one another.
An earthquake (also known as a quake, tremor or temblor) is the result of a sudden release of energy in the Earth's crust that creates seismic waves.
source
Even if we accepted that the liquid referred to magma, then why did the Buddha not mention the most important part of the explanation: tectonic plates?
In fact this interpretation requires a large number of assumptions:
1. That the Buddha somehow had supernatural knowledge of the structure of the earth
2. That the element of liquid referred to is magma
3. That the element of atmosphere that referred to is gravity or something similar (a huge stetch of interpretation there)
4. That the solid iron core of the earth is omitted from the account
5. The reference to space supporting the atmosphere seems to have no explanation unless it refers to the space on the opposite side of the planet (it is of course completely wrong to talk about magma resting on top of gravity on top of space on the other side of the planet. ) and for some reason the Buddha missed the solid core of the earth, the magma 'under' that, and the earth 'under' that, skipping to space
6. For some reason the Buddha missed the most important part of the explanation of earthquakes which is that it is due to tectonic plates slipping against (or over/under) one another or that our modern understanding is actually wrong (which means that the Buddha's description is not verified at all)
Alternatively we can note that his description is highly consistent with the layering of elements (earth on water on wind on space) believed to substantiate the flat disc of the earth in Indian thought at that time:
All of the structures of the earth, Sumeru and the rest, extend downward to a depth of 80,000 yojanas below sea level – the same as the height of Sumeru above sea level. Below this is a layer of "golden earth", a substance compact and firm enough to support the weight of Sumeru. It is 320,000 yojanas in depth and so extends to 400,000 yojanas below sea level. The layer of golden earth in turn rests upon a layer of water, which is 8,000,000 yojanas in depth, going down to 8,400,000 yojanas below sea level. Below the layer of water is a "circle of wind", which is 16,000,000 yojanas in depth and also much broader in extent, supporting 1,000 different worlds upon it.
source
Which interpretation begs the fewer number of questions? Which is a more plausible interpretation? The explanation of earthquakes given is in fact
perfectly consistent with the worldview of that time (no 'bending' or reinterpretation with hindsight required), especially when we look at another translation, which makes this even clearer:
Ananda, there are eight causes of, or conditions leading to, great earthquakes. What are the eight (causes)?
Ananda, this great earth is supported by water, the water by air, the air by space. At times great winds blow strongly. When great winds blow strongly, the water is shaken. When the water is shaken, the earth is shaken. This is the first cause of, the first condition leading to, the occurrence of great earthquakes. (1)
Mahaparinibbana Sutta, BURMA PITAKA ASSOCIATION
Also:
The causes of earthquakes said to have been explained by the Buddha to Ananda are;
1. The great earth is established on water, the water on wind and wind rests upon space. As the mighty wind blows, the waters are shaken and by the moving waters, the earth shaken.
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A Historical Analysis of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta of the Digha Nikaya of the Pali Canon, Ven. Pategama Gnanarama Ph.D.
Case closed. And I am not the only person to find this inaccurate in the light of modern knowledge.
In the third chapter of the Mahaparinibbana Suttanta Buddha gives us a description of his visit to Vaisali. His explanation of the causes of earthquake is far from satisfactory and reveals his lack of scientific knowledge,
A STUDY OF THE DIGHA NIKAYA OF THE SUTTAPITAKA
beeblebrox wrote:I'm not saying that the Dhamma is the only thing that is worthy, or vice versa... or that you should do with one, instead of the other. The science is useful, of course. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional... but you really shouldn't try to map it onto the Dhamma, and expect anything out of it. (At least not without some serious modification of the languages used.)
Some of your rhetoric is remarkably close to that of Christians and Muslims I have spoken to who claimed special advanced scientific knowledge was revealed in their infallible religious texts. The OP is:
"This great earth, Ananda, is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. And when, Ananda, mighty atmospheric disturbances take place, the liquid is agitated. And with the agitation of the liquid, tremors of the earth arise. This is the first reason, the first cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes." (Digha Nikaya 16)
How do you understand this passage in light of science?
I responded to that and to the following responses. I'm sorry if my responses are causing you to experience cognitive dissonance.
On the other hand, whether the Buddha actually said those words attributed to him in the sutta is not at all certain.