The simple explanation is that clearly profound and highly intelligent as he was, his understanding of geology and plate tectonics was not great by modern standards.lojong1 wrote:That's no reason to assume he would spread unnecessary BS among his closest students, those who already had full faith in his words and had been exposed to his methods for many years with all kinds of audiences.
Science-Earthquake
Re: Science-Earthquake
Re: Science-Earthquake
Dang it okay I'm tapping. I was so sure that earthquakes had something to do with tectonic plate movement due to gravitational shifts through massive liquids above the crust and in the outer core, and that Buddha and modern science agreed at least that far.
Last edited by lojong1 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Science-Earthquake
What is the origin of tapping? Trying to think of ways to keep the idea that the Buddha of the Pali Canon, is omniscient? Forget it.
Re: Science-Earthquake
Not omniscient, just not a bullsheisser. Tapping as in MMA I give up--or rather, my arm's good and trapped, let's reset.
Last edited by lojong1 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Science-Earthquake
Well I don't think that there's any reason to suppose he was deliberately misleading anyone. He was simply expressing himself in terms of the understand of his day (which was almost certainly his understanding too, as I see it). The earth is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. Of course it is. Don't you know anything?
Re: Science-Earthquake
Hi,
I took a look at the link provided by Lojong1.
Paul A. LaViolette looks like a credible scientist. He has published in peer-reviewed journal. His book Earth under Fire is based on his PhD dissertation. Anybody who think otherwise would care to comment?
His theory, too, may lend support to what the Buddha said.
Anyway, my POV is that to find scientific answers to scientific querries in the Suttas is improper and wrong.
Best wishes,
Rahula
I took a look at the link provided by Lojong1.
Paul A. LaViolette looks like a credible scientist. He has published in peer-reviewed journal. His book Earth under Fire is based on his PhD dissertation. Anybody who think otherwise would care to comment?
His theory, too, may lend support to what the Buddha said.
Anyway, my POV is that to find scientific answers to scientific querries in the Suttas is improper and wrong.
Best wishes,
Rahula
Re: Science-Earthquake
There's that smell again...rose scented animal feces.
Re: Science-Earthquake
Surely not ... I'm sure they're violet scented this time.lojong1 wrote:There's that smell again...rose scented animal feces.
Kim
Re: Science-Earthquake
I fully agree.rahula80 wrote:... my POV is that to find scientific answers to scientific querries in the Suttas is improper and wrong.
Science grows by building onto what it already knows, testing every addition as it does so.
Kim
Re: Science-Earthquake
Will someone disambiguate this for me?rahula80 wrote:... my POV is that to find scientific answers to scientific querries in the Suttas is improper and wrong.
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Re: Science-Earthquake
I am not at all sure that I know how to disambiguate...
But I think it means dont look to the Suttas for an explanation of the phenomenological universe which corresponds at all points to that of science.
Its not the job of the Suttas.
Of course if we see the Suttas as DivInely Inspired Scriptures...this could be problem . But if we dont, If we see them as a bit of an old mishmash of carefully recorded utterances of the Buddha , prevailing myth, and later additions.... then safely through the thickets of ambiguity we go.
But I think it means dont look to the Suttas for an explanation of the phenomenological universe which corresponds at all points to that of science.
Its not the job of the Suttas.
Of course if we see the Suttas as DivInely Inspired Scriptures...this could be problem . But if we dont, If we see them as a bit of an old mishmash of carefully recorded utterances of the Buddha , prevailing myth, and later additions.... then safely through the thickets of ambiguity we go.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Science-Earthquake
Rahula80 hasn't disagreed with this so I guess it's what he meant.Sanghamitta wrote:But I think it means dont look to the Suttas for an explanation of the phenomenological universe which corresponds at all points to that of science.
Its not the job of the Suttas.
I'm looking to the suttas to see what is in the suttas, no more no less. Knowing that the Pali vocabulary would have been extremely limited in this field; seeing the various translations and how easily they are interpreted with entirely Western connotation; not knowing the translators' competence in seismology and related fields, not to mention my own ignorance -- for these reasons I'm not ready to say this earthquake bit contradicts current scientific findings--and much less willing to say it will always appear wrong.
"Gravitational wave is a concept of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity given in 1916. According to the theory, accelerating mass should radiate gravitational waves as accelerating charges radiate radio waves. Gravitational wave is a deformation of space-time. An object exposed to gravitational waves should become alternatively longer and thinner, shorter and broader. The variation however so small (10-17 in dimensionless) that it does not yet possible to detect. Several direct detectors of gravitational are being built in USA. The best known of these are Laser Interferometer Ground Observatory (LIGO) and Laser Interferometer Space Array (LISA). In Bangladesh, theoretical research on pulsar, gravitational waves and earthquake prediction from space are being done at the Department of Mathematics and Natural Sciences of BRAC University." http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/n ... nid=155247" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"We have computed perturbations in the nighttime mid-latitude F2 region ionosphere that could be produced by internal atmospheric gravity waves generated before strong earthquakes through ionospheric Joule heating due to the seismogenic electric field of short duration. There is a strong anisotropy of the atmospheric gravity wave effect with respect to the imminent earthquake epicentre, the electron density changes being maximum poleward and equatorward of the epicentre and being minimum eastward and westward of it. It should be noted that the duration of the electron density perturbation in the F2 region ionosphere is much longer than the duration of the primary precursor of an earthquake – the enhancement of the vertical electric field at the Earth’s surface, which initiates the atmospheric gravity wave generation. This fact is important from the practical point of view of predicting catastrophic earthquakes." http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... archtype=a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elchin_Khalilov" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gravitational Waves and Geodynamics by Khalilov (in Russian) http://book-ias-he.org/Qravitatsionnie_ ... namika.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.khalilov.biz/pdf/About%20pos ... es%203.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Science-Earthquake
Make sense to me. In addition, I agree that we should not look to the suttas for "explanation of the phenomenological universe" as that is not the objective of the suttas and as whatever was stated in the suttas would conform with the extant knowledge.lojong1 wrote:I'm looking to the suttas to see what is in the suttas, no more no less. Knowing that the Pali vocabulary would have been extremely limited in this field; seeing the various translations and how easily they are interpreted with entirely Western connotation; not knowing the translators' competence in seismology and related fields, not to mention my own ignorance -- for these reasons I'm not ready to say this earthquake bit contradicts current scientific findings--and much less willing to say it will always appear wrong.
Since the effect of gravitational wave is hard to detect, I would think that extraterrestial gravitational waves would hardly have any impact on terrestial seismic activity.lojong1 wrote:"Gravitational wave is a concept of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity given in 1916. According to the theory, accelerating mass should radiate gravitational waves as accelerating charges radiate radio waves. Gravitational wave is a deformation of space-time. An object exposed to gravitational waves should become alternatively longer and thinner, shorter and broader. The variation however so small (10-17 in dimensionless) that it does not yet possible to detect. Several direct detectors of gravitational are being built in USA. The best known of these are Laser Interferometer Ground Observatory (LIGO) and Laser Interferometer Space Array (LISA). In Bangladesh, theoretical research on pulsar, gravitational waves and earthquake prediction from space are being done at the Department of Mathematics and Natural Sciences of BRAC University." http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/n ... nid=155247" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This looks more like a description of the effect of changes in terrestial gravitational field from seismic activity of the earth itself.lojong1 wrote:"We have computed perturbations in the nighttime mid-latitude F2 region ionosphere that could be produced by internal atmospheric gravity waves generated before strong earthquakes through ionospheric Joule heating due to the seismogenic electric field of short duration. There is a strong anisotropy of the atmospheric gravity wave effect with respect to the imminent earthquake epicentre, the electron density changes being maximum poleward and equatorward of the epicentre and being minimum eastward and westward of it. It should be noted that the duration of the electron density perturbation in the F2 region ionosphere is much longer than the duration of the primary precursor of an earthquake – the enhancement of the vertical electric field at the Earth’s surface, which initiates the atmospheric gravity wave generation. This fact is important from the practical point of view of predicting catastrophic earthquakes." http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... archtype=a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This probably has the closest correspondence to the suttic description of a cause of earthquake.lojong1 wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elchin_Khalilov
Gravitational Waves and Geodynamics by Khalilov (in Russian) http://book-ias-he.org/Qravitatsionnie_ ... namika.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.khalilov.biz/pdf/About%20pos ... es%203.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Science-Earthquake
"mahāpathavī udake patiṭṭhitā, udakaṃ vāte patiṭṭhitaṃ, vāto ākāsaṭṭho"
(Rhetorical) What does it mean to be "patiṭṭhitā"?
Paul Heckert: "Earth and Solid Planets Were Once Liquid.
"Surface tension will pull liquids and gasses into a spherical shape but not solids. The fact that Earth, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars and the larger moons of Jupiter or Saturn are all spherical tells astronomers that they were once liquid. These worlds are all solid now, but were liquid when they first formed. The smaller moons of Jupiter or Saturn, and asteroids are not spherical because they were never liquid." http://www.suite101.com/content/why-are ... nd-a189153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(Rhetorical) What does it mean to be "patiṭṭhitā"?
Paul Heckert: "Earth and Solid Planets Were Once Liquid.
"Surface tension will pull liquids and gasses into a spherical shape but not solids. The fact that Earth, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars and the larger moons of Jupiter or Saturn are all spherical tells astronomers that they were once liquid. These worlds are all solid now, but were liquid when they first formed. The smaller moons of Jupiter or Saturn, and asteroids are not spherical because they were never liquid." http://www.suite101.com/content/why-are ... nd-a189153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;