Nibbana

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retrofuturist
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Re: Nibbana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Element wrote:The Third Noble Truth is about dukkha nirodha. 'Nirodha' here is permanent nirodha (as distinct from atungkama). The Buddha has said this dukkha nirodha is to be 'realised'. To 'realise' something requires a mind. Realisation or experience cannot occur when there are no aggregates. Therefore, the Mahavihara retort is not in accord to the Lord Buddha's teaching itself.

Further, in the Third Noble Truth, the Lord Buddha has advised dukkha nirodha is solely the cessation of craving. Again, the Mahavihara retort is not in accord to the Lord Buddha's teaching itself.
:goodpost:

Well said, Mahadhatu. I look forward to seeing the Mahavihara retort to that.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

Well said, Mahadhatu. I look forward to seeing the Mahavihara retort to that.
A retort:
Image
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Nibbana

Post by mikenz66 »

Dear Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote: A retort: ...
Are you sure that's a Mahavihara retort? It looks rather modern to me.

Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

An less modern, but surely an orthodox, retort:

Image
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cooran
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Re: Nibbana

Post by cooran »

Hello Tilt and Retro,

I really don't understand the pictures - what they are and what they mean - and I'm sure I can't be the only one. Could you explain, please, what they are and the significance of them in this thread (seriously)?

metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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retrofuturist
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Re: Nibbana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,

In complete seriousness, there is no connection.

In not so seriousness, it's based on the two meanings of the word retort ...
re·tort 1 (r-tôrt)
v. re·tort·ed, re·tort·ing, re·torts
v.tr.
1.
a. To reply, especially to answer in a quick, caustic, or witty manner. See Synonyms at answer.
b. To present a counterargument to.
2. To return in kind; pay back.
v.intr.
1. To make a reply, especially a quick, caustic, or witty one.
2. To present a counterargument.
3. To return like for like; retaliate.
n.
1. A quick incisive reply, especially one that turns the first speaker's words to his or her own disadvantage.
2. The act or an instance of retorting.
[Latin retorqure, retort-, to bend back, retort : re-, re- + torqure, to bend, twist; see terkw- in Indo-European roots.]

re·tort 2 (r-tôrt, rtôrt)
n.
A closed laboratory vessel with an outlet tube, used for distillation, sublimation, or decomposition by heat.
Now, we've seen a couple of retorts (defn.2), but I'm still interested in seeing a Mahavihara retort (defn.1) to Element's insightful comment.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

Judging from definition one, and its subsections, we really do not want a retort.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Nibbana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Further to Element's comment above...

Ud 4.4 -Juñha Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Whose mind is like rock,
steady,
unmoved,
dispassionate for things that spark passion,
unangered by things that spark anger:
When one's mind is developed like this,
from where can there come
suffering & stress?
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Element,
Only clinging is dukkha.
Well, that's a novel claim. But nothing in the rest of your post supports it.
Dukkha-dukkhatā is not dukkha. Dukkha-dukkhatā is dukkha for putujanas:

But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed. (DN 16)
But the passage you cite doesn't show that "dukkha-dukkhatā is dukkha for puthujjanas." Quite the contrary, since dukkha-dukkhatā is bodily pain, and since the passage describes such pain as arising in an arahant, clearly dukkha-dukkhatā is not confined to puthujjanas. All the passage shows is that one ariyan, the Buddha, was able to endure bodily pain with mindfulness and equanimity. But other ariyans were not thus able and needed encouragement from the Buddha or other bhikkhus.
  • Now at that time Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī became ill. Monks who were elders approached Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī, and having approached they spoke thus to Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī:

    “Gotamī, we hope you are bearing up, we hope you are getting better.”

    “Venerable sirs, I am not bearing up, I am not getting better. Please, venerable sirs, teach me the Dhamma.”
    (Vin. iv. 56)
See also the Khemaka Sutta (SN. iii. 126-32), the three Gilāna Suttas (SN. v. 79-81),and the Phagguna Sutta (AN. iii. 379-83).
Saṅkhāra-dukkhatā and dukkha lakana are not dukkha. They are also dukkha for putujanas:

278. "All conditioned things are dukkha" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification. (Dhammapada)
But the passage you cite doesn't show that "saṅkhāra-dukkhatā is dukkha for puthujjanas." Quite the contrary, it states that "all conditioned things are dukkha," with no qualification. I would guess you have been misled by the translation "one turns away from suffering," which might be taken as implying that one no longer has any relationship at all to the thing in question. But the Pali won't support such a reading:
  • “sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā” ti, yadā paññāya passati.
    atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā.
The verb 'nibbindati' (the source of the noun 'nibbidā') means "to turn away" in the sense of becoming disgusted or disillusioned with something. It does not mean that one is at once freed from the thing in question. All saṅkhāras are dukkha in the sense of being oppressed by rise and fall (udayavaya-ppaṭipīḷana) and they continue to be so whether they arise for a puthujjana, a sekha or an asekha. Hence the saying: "Whatsoever is felt, all that is included in dukkha."
Only upadana dukkha is real dukkha.
It may be more vivid or palpable, but that doesn't make it more "real". Moreover, given that it is seeing saṅkhāra-dukkha that liberates, and given that the four noble truths are "profound, hard to see... etc.", we shouldn't expect saṅkhāra-dukkha to be something terribly vivid or palpable.
The Third Noble Truth is about dukkha nirodha. 'Nirodha' here is permanent nirodha (as distinct from atungkama). The Buddha has said this dukkha nirodha is to be 'realised'. To 'realise' something requires a mind. Realisation or experience cannot occur when there are no aggregates. Therefore, the Mahavihara retort is not in accord to the Lord Buddha's teaching itself.
Well, neither of us is likely to persuade the other on this, for our disagreement is rooted in markedly different conceptions of what the problem of dukkha consists in. But for those readers who take saṃsāra seriously, here's how nirodha is understood in the classical Theravāda:
  • Nirodha (cessation): the word ni denotes absence, and the word rodha a prison. Now the third truth is empty of all [post-mortem] destinies and so there is no constraint (rodha) of suffering here reckoned as prison of the round of rebirths.

    Or, when that cessation has been arrived at, there is no more constraint of suffering reckoned as the prison of the round of rebirths. And being the opposite of that prison, it is called dukkha-nirodha.

    Or alternatively, it is called 'cessation of suffering' because it is a condition for the cessation of suffering consisting in non-arising.

    [...]

    Also cessation is of one kind, being the unconditioned element.
    But indirectly it is of two kinds, as "with result of past clinging left" and as "without result of past clinging left."
    And of three kinds, as the stilling of the three kinds of becoming.
    And of four kinds, as approachable by the four [ariyan] paths.
    And of five kinds, as the subsiding of the five kinds of delight.
    And of six kinds, classed according to the destruction of the six groups of craving.
    (adapted from Path of Purification XVI 18, 63, 94)
Further, in the Third Noble Truth, the Lord Buddha has advised dukkha nirodha is solely the cessation of craving.
It is the fruit of the abandoning of craving. The abandoning of craving partly yields its effect at the time of the attainment of arahatta-phala, for example, by cutting off a variety of afflictive mental factors for the remainder of the arahant's life. It wholly yields its effect at the time of nibbāna without remainder. To assert otherwise is to ignore the fact that the first truth includes aging, sickness and death, to which an arahant is still subject. The first noble truth doesn't say "Aging, sickness and death are only dukkha if you're a puthujjana."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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kowtaaia
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Re: Nibbana

Post by kowtaaia »

Yam kinci vedayitam, tam pi dukkhasmim.

Whatever sensations one experiences, all are suffering.
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Re: Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

kowtaaia wrote:Yam kinci vedayitam, tam pi dukkhasmim.

Whatever sensations one experiences, all are suffering.
A citation for the text, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

kowtaaia,

And back to your earlier statement:
Your request for citation, doesn't make sense. Hopefully, a Theravadin forum doesn't exclude common sense.
A Theravadin does not exclude common sense, but it certainly does not include what people imagine the Buddha to have taught, which is why asking to tie a statement to the actual teachings is not an unreasonable thing to do.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kowtaaia
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Re: Nibbana

Post by kowtaaia »

tiltbillings wrote:
kowtaaia wrote:Yam kinci vedayitam, tam pi dukkhasmim.

Whatever sensations one experiences, all are suffering.
A citation for the text, please.
It was in the Vipassana Newsletter, actually. Scroll down to the third paragraph under 'Vol.11 No.7 July 5, 2001'. It gives a reference.

http://www.vri.dhamma.org/newsletters/e ... 1-07.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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kowtaaia
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Nibbana

Post by kowtaaia »

tiltbillings wrote:kowtaaia,

And back to your earlier statement:
Your request for citation, doesn't make sense. Hopefully, a Theravadin forum doesn't exclude common sense.
A Theravadin does not exclude common sense, but it certainly does not include what people imagine the Buddha to have taught, which is why asking to tie a statement to the actual teachings is not an unreasonable thing to do.
Repeating a ***** request, does not magically alter the fact that it was a ***** request to begin with.

In response to "It (the unconditioned) is when conditioning comes to an end."

...you asked: "What sort of conditioning...?"

...the response was: "Conditioning, period."

To repeat, your request for citation, doesn't make sense.

[***** moderator edited]
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Element

Re: Nibbana

Post by Element »

kowtaaia wrote:Yam kinci vedayitam, tam pi dukkhasmim.

Whatever sensations one experiences, all are suffering.
kowtaaia

I think it is always both useful and truthful to ask oneself: "I am here to teach when I should be learning given I am only a learner?"

Of course, quoting suttas is not actual experience but the experience in the suttas is that of enlightened beings.
Here, ruler of the gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to. When a bhikkhu has heard nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings, contemplating fading away, contemplating cessation, contemplating relinquishment. Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: 'What had to be done has been done'. Briefly, it is in this way, ruler of the gods, that a bhikkhu is liberated in the destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end.

Culatanhasankhaya Sutta
Last edited by Element on Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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