Reincarnation Question.

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Jason
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Re: Reincarnation Question.

Post by Jason » Sun May 02, 2010 10:13 pm

Sobeh wrote:
Jason wrote:if the conditions for its existence persist indefinitely
This happens not at all. You are basing your word-play on impossibilities.
Says who?

As far as I'm aware, it's never explicitly stated by the Buddha or posited in Theravada that the conditions for a given phenomenon's existence will necessarily cease, only that they can if the requisite conditions for its cessation are present. In the case of literal rebirth, there's no guarantee that those requisite conditions will be met — i.e., that all sentient beings will be liberated — so I'm not sure how one can say with any real conviction that this is an impossibility or "happens not at all." In fact, it's logically possible that "when this is [indefinitely], that is [indefinitely]."
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Reincarnation Question.

Post by Sobeh » Mon May 03, 2010 3:18 am

Anicca.

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appicchato
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Re: Reincarnation Question.

Post by appicchato » Mon May 03, 2010 3:55 am

As far as I'm aware, it's never explicitly stated by the Buddha or posited in Theravada that the conditions for a given phenomenon's existence will necessarily cease, only that they can if the requisite conditions for its cessation are present.
Semantics...one can say that a given phenomenon's existence will (indeed) necessarily (by necessity) cease, if the requisite conditions for its cessation are present...

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Re: Reincarnation Question.

Post by Jason » Mon May 03, 2010 4:09 am

Sobeh wrote:Anicca.
That doesn't negate anything I've said.

Anicca simply means inconstant, and in terms of compounded phenomena, it implies change and lack of self (because whatever is inconstant and subject to change isn't fit to be called "me" or "mine"). The process of rebirth is a process of continual change, one that lacks a permanent, unchanging self. Nevertheless, the literal process of rebirth can be said to be infinite as long as the conditions for it's continuation are present, and finite if and when those conditions cease. So again, as far as I can see, it's logically possible that "when this is [indefinitely], that is [indefinitely]."
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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appicchato
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Re: Reincarnation Question.

Post by appicchato » Mon May 03, 2010 4:23 am

Anicca simply means inconstant...
Again...not quite there...anicca means (in every dictionary I've seen) impermanence...not inconstancy...

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Jason
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Re: Reincarnation Question.

Post by Jason » Mon May 03, 2010 4:37 am

appicchato wrote:
Anicca simply means inconstant...
Again...not quite there...anicca means (in every dictionary I've seen) impermanence...not inconstancy...
Anicca is the negative of nicca, which means constant or dependable.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Reincarnation Question.

Post by retrofuturist » Mon May 03, 2010 4:44 am

Greetings Jason,
Jason wrote:Anicca is the negative of nicca, which means constant or dependable.
Chances are you've seen this, but Nanavira Thera gives a thought-provoking analysis on the problem with interpreting aniccata as flux...

http://www.nanavira.110mb.com/sn-patic.htm#nc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Jason
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Re: Reincarnation Question.

Post by Jason » Mon May 03, 2010 4:49 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Jason,
Jason wrote:Anicca is the negative of nicca, which means constant or dependable.
Chances are you've seen this, but Nanavira Thera gives a thought-provoking analysis on the problem with interpreting aniccata as flux...

http://www.nanavira.110mb.com/sn-patic.htm#nc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Interesting. Thanks.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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