Are gods bored and can they meditate?

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MrLearner
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Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by MrLearner »

Hey,
I have a question about god realms, in buddhism that can be reached when you do good karma.

1. The god realms are full of hapiness, but my question is will gods eventually get bored of this continuous happiness even before there good karma finishes. Does this mean without letting go, too much happiness or sadness both lead to suffering? So can gods also be suffering due to too much happiness? Sorry if this is a stupid question and makes no sense.

2. Why can't gods meditate in god realms and achieve enlightenment there without becoming human to do so?
perkele
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by perkele »

MrLearner wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:13 pm Hey,

/.../

2. Why can't gods meditate in god realms and achieve enlightenment there without becoming human to do so?
Hello!

I'm pretty sure that nowhere in the suttas is such a statement being made.
I think there are in fact cases mentioned of devas and brahmas who were taught by the Buddha or his disciples and attained stream-entry, although I don't remember a case where it was mentioned that they became arahats within that same heavenly lifetime.
But I would assume that many (most?) of them would then proceed towards non-return/anagami, re-appearing only once more in the higher brahma realms where only non-returners have their last existence before final nibbana.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

I think I read in Abhidhamma something like if you are a first jhāna deva, for example, you can only go from the second jhāna on since you are always living with the perception of the first jhāna (singularity of perception).
Dīgha Nikāya 15 wrote:"There are beings with diversity of body and singularity of perception, such as the devas of the Brahma hosts generated by the first [jhana] and some beings in the four realms of deprivation. This is the second station of consciousness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


Also, one of the epithets of the Buddha is "sattha deva manussanam" (I don't know if it's exactly like that since my Pāli is terrible), what means "teacher of the Devas and Humans", because only we and they can practice the Dhamma (excluding impercipient beings and devas from arupajhanas because they can't hear the Dhamma or something), but it's more difficult for them to practice since they only experience pleasure and can't see the drawbacks of saṃsāra.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

I found it.
Image
Image
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
perkele
Posts: 999
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by perkele »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:43 pm I think I read in Abhidhamma something like if you are a first jhāna deva, for example, you can only go from the second jhāna on since you are always living with the perception of the first jhāna (singularity of perception).
Dīgha Nikāya 15 wrote:"There are beings with diversity of body and singularity of perception, such as the devas of the Brahma hosts generated by the first [jhana] and some beings in the four realms of deprivation. This is the second station of consciousness.
You mean 1st Jhana Brahmas cannot be reborn lower than that?
If so, then I think you've misunderstood something. It would seem then like 1st jhana would already be akin to stream-entry in a way, since one could then never fall back from there but only go higher, while the Buddha clearly stated that, quite generally, the opposite (going lower) is more likely (link to thread about that).
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:05 pm I found it.
And that text does also not really support that (what I assumed to be your) statement:
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:05 pm Image
Image
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confusedlayman
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:05 pm I found it.
Image
Image
Pls explain
dont think
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:15 pm
You mean 1st Jhana Brahmas cannot be reborn lower than that?
No, I meant if they (1st jhāna devas) meditate to attain higher jhānas, they will go directly to the second jhāna since they already live in the first jhāna.
The Abhidhamma quote was to show that they can experience cittas of other planes, that is, they can meditate to attain higher jhānas such as 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4 arupa jhānas too.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
perkele
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by perkele »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:18 pm
perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:15 pm
You mean 1st Jhana Brahmas cannot be reborn lower than that?
No, I meant, if they (1st jhāna devas) meditate to attain higher jhānas, they will go directly to the second jhāna since they already live in the first jhāna.
Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:16 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:05 pm I found it.
Image
Image
Pls explain
When you are in jhāna, you are in [ x jhāna citta]

"Fine-material and immaterial sphere cittas can arise in the sensory plane"

=

We can do jhānas and therefore experience jhānic cittas.


"Sense-sphere cittas can arise in the fine-material and immaterial planes."

=

Devas can experience cittas of our plane. It implies they can experience other jhānic cittas. In other words, they can meditate and attain jhānas.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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confusedlayman
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:25 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:16 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:05 pm I found it.
Image
Image
Pls explain
When you are in jhāna, you are in [ x jhāna citta]

"Fine-material and immaterial sphere cittas can arise in the sensory plane"

=

We can do jhānas and therefore experience jhānic cittas.


"Sense-sphere cittas can arise in the fine-material and immaterial planes."

=

Devas can experience cittas of our plane. It implies they can experience other jhānic cittas. In other words, they can meditate and attain jhānas.
Can devas feel anger and revenge?


Is human is loweeet realm where jhana is possible?
dont think
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:31 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:25 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:16 pm

Pls explain
When you are in jhāna, you are in [ x jhāna citta]

"Fine-material and immaterial sphere cittas can arise in the sensory plane"

=

We can do jhānas and therefore experience jhānic cittas.


"Sense-sphere cittas can arise in the fine-material and immaterial planes."

=

Devas can experience cittas of our plane. It implies they can experience other jhānic cittas. In other words, they can meditate and attain jhānas.
Can devas feel anger and revenge?


Is human is loweeet realm where jhana is possible?
I also wondered that. I can't say since I'm not a deva, but all devas except those who are anagamis, are tied to the five lower fetters, too. But I don't know how it works.
Maybe someone more versed in sutta/Abhidhamma can answer it better.

Yes. I think only from the human realm jhānas can be attained.
Last edited by rhinoceroshorn on Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
User avatar
rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Btw, happy birthday. :candle:
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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DooDoot
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by DooDoot »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:37 pm I don't know how it works.
:goodpost:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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DooDoot
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by DooDoot »

MrLearner wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:13 pm I have a question about god realms, in buddhism that can be reached when you do good karma.
Yes, it appears so.
MrLearner wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:13 pm1. The god realms are full of happiness, but my question is will gods eventually get bored of this continuous happiness even before there good karma finishes.
Yes. Since conditioned things are impermanent, it appears gods can end up unhappy & be reborn in hell, as described in AN 4.123.
MrLearner wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:13 pmDoes this mean without letting go, too much happiness or sadness both lead to suffering?
Yes. Again, AN 4.123 refers to devas attached to happiness that are reborn into hell & other lower realms.
MrLearner wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:13 pmSo can gods also be suffering due to too much happiness? Sorry if this is a stupid question and makes no sense.
The suffering happens because the happiness is impermanent because the happiness is conditioned by an impermanent cause.
MrLearner wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:13 pm2. Why can't gods meditate in god realms and achieve enlightenment there without becoming human to do so?
The suttas appear to say enlightenment can be reached in a godly realm. However, it appears these gods are taught by a Buddha that has arisen in the human realm.

Kind regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
tamdrin
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by tamdrin »

As I understand it some deva realms are conducive to practice, while some are not. Some of the more sensual realms like Tavitimsa, the beings will be distracted by the sense pleasures.


Some of the realms like Tushita heaven, beings are in a state similar to upacara samadhi. These beings practice.

I know according to the Mahayana Tushita heaven is divided into an outer and an inner court. In the inner court resides Maitreya Buddha and other bodhisattvas. The outer court is like a deva realm. I don't know if Theravada accepts this.
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