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can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:26 am
by confusedlayman
if Nibbana is unconsciousness state forever, then how did dependent origination arise first? I mean why first cause cant be found according to buddha? is it circular and not linear? even if its circular, there should be starting point.

attaining nibbana and then what if we restart from beginning somehow?

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:36 am
by SarathW
Could you explain what is Nibbana and enlightenment is please?

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:01 am
by cappuccino
confusedlayman wrote: if Nibbana is unconsciousness state forever
what gave you this idea? … rather it's a state forever

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:39 am
by Alīno
According to The Buddha there is no discernable beginning of Samsara...

Ignorance, not seeing clearly as it is, is a root cause...

There is nobody in 5 khandhas, and realisation of its a lying down of burden, freedom from suffering. So there is nobody who attains Nibbana and become unconscious... If i understand well..

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:57 am
by dhammacoustic
confusedlayman wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:26 am
if Nibbana is unconsciousness state forever,
nibbana is not unconsciousness state. if anything, it's the opposite..
then how did dependent origination arise first?

I mean why first cause cant be found according to buddha? is it circular and not linear? even if its circular, there should be starting point.

attaining nibbana and then what if we restart from beginning somehow?
there is no point of origin, and we don't come from nibbana. rather , samsara/avijja is the flip side of nibbana/vijja. they necessitate each other :yingyang:

existence/time/conditionality is beginningless. but it has an absolute ending once unconditionality is realized , which is endless, timeless. in other words, you are time itself , until you are not. once you are not, time cannot arise again..

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:48 pm
by dharmacorps
Nibbana is the unfabricated. So questions of conscious, unconcious, first, last, born/reborn do not apply. There are innumerable suttas which include this.

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:18 pm
by cappuccino
"But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear?"

"'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear."

"'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"...both does & does not reappear."

"...doesn't apply."

"...neither does nor does not reappear."

"...doesn't apply."

Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta: To Vacchagotta on Fire

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:38 pm
by confusedlayman
Sorry i mean parinibbana unconcious like state.. ok wait.. anither doubt.. if 5 agg revorn because of desire.. then where first desire came and agg came after desire or whats going on?

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:24 am
by Alīno
confusedlayman wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:38 pm
Sorry i mean parinibbana unconcious like state.. ok wait.. anither doubt.. if 5 agg revorn because of desire.. then where first desire came and agg came after desire or whats going on?
This question not lead to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, it's irrelevant to practice of Sila Samadhi and Panna, only result you can get from these questions is mental profileration that will disturb your Samadhi, and without Samadhi you sant cultivate and train your mind, and without cultivation of the mind you can be free from desire and avertion... Buddha said that there is no discerneable begining of Samsara, and he looked back countless periods of expantion and contraction, its all we have to know...

With metta :meditate:

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:59 am
by pegembara
The awakened one has broken through the illusion of existence. For him/her there is no idea/thought of birth or death or self-referencing, let alone rebirth/reincarnation. In other words the thought "What's is to become of me?" doesn't occur.
"For one who loves consciousness, who is fond of consciousness, who cherishes consciousness, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of consciousness, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"For one who doesn't love consciousness, who isn't fond of consciousness, who doesn't cherish consciousness, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of consciousness, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
By whom was this living being created?
Where is the living being's maker?
Where has the living being originated?
Where does the living being
cease?

What? Do you assume a 'living being,' Mara?
Do you take a position?
This is purely a pile of fabrications.
Here no living being
can be pinned down.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Death" is likened to blowing out of a lamp or turning out the lights.
"Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick — and from not being provided any other sustenance — it goes out unnourished; in the same way, when sensing a feeling limited to the body, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'"

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:29 am
by Aloka
if Nibbana is unconsciousness state forever
Reading this book might be helpful: "The Island - An Anthology of the Buddha's Teachings on Nibbana" by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro:
https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/the-island/

Excerpt from the beginning of chapter one:

NIBBANNA (NIRVANA IN SANSKRIT) IS A WORD THAT IS USED to describe an experience. When the heart is free of all obscurations, and is utterly in accord with nature, Ultimate Reality (Dhamma), it experiences perfect peace, joy and contentment. This set of qualities is what Nibbana describes. The purpose of this book is to outline the particular teachings of the Buddha that point to and illuminate ways that these qualities can be realized.


:anjali:

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:30 pm
by Laurens
confusedlayman wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:26 am
if Nibbana is unconsciousness state forever, then how did dependent origination arise first? I mean why first cause cant be found according to buddha? is it circular and not linear? even if its circular, there should be starting point.

attaining nibbana and then what if we restart from beginning somehow?
Wondering how it all started is a fruitless enterprise. Its a waste of effort to ponder questions that we will never answer.

Nibbana is not unconsciousness forever. Nor is it a state from which one can decide to hit the restart button, also why would one want to even if they could?

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:58 pm
by Bundokji
A beginning is necessary to construct a theory about existence. Why do you want to construct a theory about existence? So you can continue to think in terms of existence and non-existence

Re: can enlightened being be reborn?

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:24 am
by SteRo
confusedlayman wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:26 am
if Nibbana is unconsciousness state forever, then how did dependent origination arise first? I mean why first cause cant be found according to buddha? is it circular and not linear? even if its circular, there should be starting point.
"It's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is finite,' there is the living of the holy life. And it's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is infinite,' there is the living of the holy life. When there is the view, 'The cosmos is finite,' and when there is the view, 'The cosmos is infinite,' there is still the birth, there is the aging, there is the death, there is the sorrow, lamentation, pain, despair, & distress whose destruction I make known right in the here & now.
...
"And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.

"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html