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Meaning of phrase

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:29 pm
by P Chaudhuri
What is the meaning of the phrase "with perception or without perception or with neither perception nor non-perception"?
This phrase appears frequently in different discourses.

Re: Meaning of phrase

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:59 pm
by Volo
Could you cite the whole sentence or give a reference to the sutta?

Re: Meaning of phrase

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:14 pm
by P Chaudhuri
It is from SN 45.139.

“Mendicants, the Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha, is said to be the best of all sentient beings—be they footless, with two feet, four feet, or many feet; with form or formless; with perception or without perception or with neither perception nor non-perception."

Is this about the beings in higher realms?

Re: Meaning of phrase

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:35 pm
by santa100
P Chaudhuri wrote:Is this about the beings in higher realms?
Right, basically it includes beings of the 3 realms, for example there're the ASannaSatta's in the Fine-Material realm, or the NevaSannanaSannayatanupaga's in the Immaterial realm. See Thirty-one Planes of Existence for further details.

Re: Meaning of phrase

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:07 pm
by P Chaudhuri
santa100 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:35 pm
P Chaudhuri wrote:Is this about the beings in higher realms?
Right, basically it includes beings of the 3 realms, for example there're the ASannaSatta's in the Fine-Material realm, or the NevaSannanaSannayatanupaga's in the Immaterial realm. See Thirty-one Planes of Existence for further details.
Ok. Thank you. I will check that.

Re: Meaning of phrase

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:15 pm
by P Chaudhuri
But I dont understand what does having 'perception' or 'non-perception' means?

Re: Meaning of phrase

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:56 pm
by santa100
Beings with perception are regular wordlings like us. For those without, if you look at my attached link, under The Fine-Material World section, item (22), Unconscious beings/ASannaSatta are those who are reborn there due attainment of the Fourth Jhana, as a result their mind is temporarily absent during their stay there. Only their body is present. Now for the reason why the Fourth Jhana is capable of producing such interesting effect, you might want to check out Ven. Gunaratana's The Jhanas. For the ultimate detailed description, might want to check out the Visuddhamagga - Part II - Chpt. IV

Re: Meaning of phrase

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:16 am
by DooDoot
P Chaudhuri wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:29 pm
What is the meaning of the phrase "with perception or without perception or with neither perception nor non-perception"?
This phrase appears frequently in different discourses.
hi. i started a related topic here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=34174&p=509495#p509495

:smile:

Re: Meaning of phrase

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:26 pm
by ToVincent
P Chaudhuri wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:29 pm
What is the meaning of the phrase "with perception or without perception or with neither perception nor non-perception"?
This phrase appears frequently in different discourses.
Neither-perception-nor-non-perception (nevasaññanasaññayatanupaga deva)

The devas that have been born in the 31st realm, after having attained the fourth formless jhāna, find themselves in the last realm of the planes of existence.

They have no more perception of the lowest realms; yet they are not devoid of perception of the Avyākata (Abyākata), the undivided & undevelopped.
व्याकृत vyākṛta [ vy-ākṛta ]
separated , divided , developed , unfolded.
आकृत ākṛta
- arranged , built (RV.)
कृत kṛta
done , made , accomplished , performed (RV. AV)

-----

व्याकृ vyākṛ [vy-ā-√kṛ] - pp. (vyākṛta)
- sever , divide (RV. AV. VS. ŚBr.)


This has not been developped by the Buddha.”
“Abyākataṃ kho etaṃ, vaccha, bhagavatā
SN 44.11

There are several convictions that the Buddha has left undevelopped; he has set them aside and refused to comment on them.
“yānimāni diṭṭhigatāni bhagavatā abyākatāni ṭhapitāni paṭikkhittāni
MN 63

.
.

Re: Meaning of phrase

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:36 pm
by ToVincent
Neither-perception-nor-non-perception (nevasaññanasaññayatanupaga deva)

The devas that have been born in the 31st realm, after having attained the fourth formless jhāna, find themselves in the last realm of the planes of existence.

They have no more perception of the lowest realms; yet they are not devoid of perception of the Avyākata (Abyākata), the undivided & undevelopped.
व्याकृत vyākṛta [ vy-ākṛta ]
separated , divided , developed , unfolded.
आकृत ākṛta
- arranged , built (RV.)
कृत kṛta
done , made , accomplished , performed (RV. AV)

-----

व्याकृ vyākṛ [vy-ā-√kṛ] - pp. (vyākṛta)
- sever , divide (RV. AV. VS. ŚBr.)


This has not been developped by the Buddha.”
“Abyākataṃ kho etaṃ, vaccha, bhagavatā
SN 44.11

There are several convictions that the Buddha has left undevelopped; he has set them aside and refused to comment on them.
“yānimāni diṭṭhigatāni bhagavatā abyākatāni ṭhapitāni paṭikkhittāni
MN 63

.
.