Gender and the Sakyadhita

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DooDoot
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Re: Gender and the Sakyadhita

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:54 am

paul wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:53 pm
The Buddha's instruction is that gender roles must be overcome:
Not really. The quote made is for higher practise. Any person engaging in the act of sexual intercourse is engaging in gender roles. In the ordinary world, there are gender roles.

In the monastery there are also gender roles, such as the improperness of a monk to receive teachings from a nun.

thang
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Re: Gender and the Sakyadhita

Post by thang » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:06 am

The East says - the gender transition must be overcome.
The West says - the gender roles must be overcome.
The Buddha says - the gender traits must be overcome.

AgarikaJ
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Re: Gender and the Sakyadhita

Post by AgarikaJ » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:55 pm
[any obstacles to female ordination in countries such as Thailand or Burma is not related to gender roles but is related to the historical breaking of the bhikkhuni (nun) lineage and the respective institutional views towards this.
As reading through the Thai sources on this might be not an easy task; for the discussion around the Bikkhuni ordination you might find ample English sources in the older talks and writings of Ajahn Brahm and Ajahn Sujato. Especially the latter gives strong arguments based on scripture itself, even though he can loose himself in detail at times.

A good starting point would be:
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2014/05/23 ... -buddhism/

Please do note that the view of those two teachers is controversial and is not shared by the Thai Sangha council and the Ajahn Cha forest tradition (and I am sure others). So you will need to make up your own mind on this.

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DooDoot
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Re: Gender and the Sakyadhita

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:09 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:38 am
Please do note that the view of those two teachers is controversial and is not shared by the Thai Sangha council and the Ajahn Cha forest tradition (and I am sure others). So you will need to make up your own mind on this.
Thanks. I was well aware of the matter when it occurred. My primary objection to what happened was the Cultural Marxist divide & conquer strategy claiming the persecutors were the persecuted. Personally, I thought the behaviour was unworthy, particularly the demonization of the Thai Buddhism that nurtured at least one of them. Buddha-Dhamma condemns ingratitude. This said, if they overtly advised the Ajahn Chah Sangha of a decision to leave the lineage to ordain bhikkhunis then I would have had no objections to this. If an order of bhikkhus has sufficient Vinaya (which I think they have) then ordaining women is OK by me. But to claim they were kicked out from Ajahn Chah when they in reality chose to leave; I don't buy into that. The common worldling may not see anything wrong with this but I did. Kind regards. :)

AgarikaJ
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Re: Gender and the Sakyadhita

Post by AgarikaJ » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:34 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:09 pm
AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:38 am
Please do note that the view of those two teachers is controversial and is not shared by the Thai Sangha council and the Ajahn Cha forest tradition (and I am sure others). So you will need to make up your own mind on this.
Thanks. I was well aware of the matter when it occurred. My primary objection to what happened was the Cultural Marxist divide & conquer strategy claiming the persecutors were the persecuted. Personally, I thought the behaviour was unworthy, particularly the demonization of the Thai Buddhism that nurtured at least one of them. Buddha-Dhamma condemns ingratitude. This said, if they overtly advised the Ajahn Chah Sangha of a decision to leave the lineage to ordain bhikkhunis then I would have had no objections to this. If an order of bhikkhus has sufficient Vinaya (which I think they have) then ordaining women is OK by me. But to claim they were kicked out from Ajahn Chah when they in reality chose to leave; I don't buy into that. The common worldling may not see anything wrong with this but I did. Kind regards. :)
Hi DooDot,

sorry, I did not mean to imply you when I added the warning that the stance of Ajahn Brahm was controversial, this was more directed to the OP, MarkoBeocanin. I should have marked this better to avoid confusion.

He seems to be only starting to dip into Theravada, so might be unaware that not everything written on this quite complicated subject, gender in Buddhism, is to be taken as definitive viewpoint of all and that there is considerable discussion on it.

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DooDoot
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Re: Gender and the Sakyadhita

Post by DooDoot » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:12 am

AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:34 am
I added the warning that the stance of Ajahn Brahm was controversial
No. There was nothing controversial about ordaining women. Buddhism has extremely systematic Vinaya. Ordaining women should not be controversial at all because both bhikkhus and bhikkhuni have clear rules to abide to. Please do not misrepresent my reply to you, after I took the time to write a clear reply to you. All I pointed out was the lack of virtue in what occurred. I never posted anything "controversial" occurred. Kind regards

AgarikaJ
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Re: Gender and the Sakyadhita

Post by AgarikaJ » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:33 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:12 am
AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:34 am
I added the warning that the stance of Ajahn Brahm was controversial
No. There was nothing controversial about ordaining women. Buddhism has extremely systematic Vinaya. Ordaining women should not be controversial at all because both bhikkhus and bhikkhuni have clear rules to abide to. Please do not misrepresent my reply to you, after I took the time to write a clear reply to you. All I pointed out was the lack of virtue in what occurred. I never posted anything "controversial" occurred. Kind regards
I apologize if I did not acknowledge your reply properly. :anjali:

Actually I agree with your point that there should be nothing controversial about ordaining women. Still, from the view of the Thai Sangha, there very much was.

Helpfully, Ajahn Sujato posted the meeting minutes from Wat Pah Pong where Ajahn Brahm was expulsed. https://sujato.wordpress.com/2010/01/02 ... ahn-brahm/

There is a statement from Wat Pha Nanachat: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 61,0,0,1,0

and an Open Letter To All From Ajahn Brahm On His Exclusion by Wat Pah Pong: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 67,0,0,1,0

A good number of Theras came to word during the WPP meeting and were able to present their viewpoint and I do know that thir abbreviated views as logged in those meeting minutes were discussed before that at length with Ajahn Brahm. Therefore, forgive me to say that, I do detect a large amount of controversy, which led to quite personal repercussions for Ajahn Brahm.

They centered mainly around the fact that he was unwilling to (or due to knowledge of the Vinaya unable to, as is his perspective) accept that ordaining bikkhunis was Wrong View from the get-go and he would have to publicly renounce it. Simply promising not to ordain any bikhhuni again was not sufficient to keep him in his position, so it 'was agreed' that Bodhinyana monastery might split from Wat Pha Pong to avoid further discontent.

Were all those Theras wrong? And was 'allowing' him to split off his lineage rather a more virtuous way moving forward for Theravada instead of allowing one monk to hold an irreconcilable view which goes against the declared consensus of many others?

At the time I also followed the discussions and recriminations closely and once more must I state, that I found the explanations made by Ajahn Brahm, following his understanding of the Vinaya, conclusive that bikkhunis can and should be ordained. This does not change the fact that the viewpoint of multiple Theras on this matter, for a Theravada practitioner, should also hold the greatest weight.

So I am not unhappy over how things played out in the end: bikkhunis still ordained and working towards enlightenment, Ajahn Brahm able to follow his teachings independently and last but not least a pacified Thai Sangha. For us as laymen this allows to follow the teachers and practice we have accepted for ourselves as best without needing to take an either/or-stance.

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