suffering is caused by ????

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JohnK
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by JohnK » Wed May 09, 2018 3:19 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:45 am
...Paticcasamupaada is conditional arising with 12 conditions one following the other moving in a cycle.
It is interesting that Thanissaro Bhikkhu suggests that the idea of a wheel (or cycle), a common image for DO, is a simplified image that is inadequate as a depiction of the complexity of the processes leading to suffering and the undermining of that process. IIRC, this has to do with the interlocking feedback loops that he says are characteristic of non-linear systems (I'm not educated in such matters). This is from The Shape of Suffering: A Study of Dependent Co-arising
https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index ... fsuffering
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

justindesilva
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by justindesilva » Thu May 10, 2018 3:48 am

JohnK wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 3:19 pm
justindesilva wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:45 am
...Paticcasamupaada is conditional arising with 12 conditions one following the other moving in a cycle.
It is interesting that Thanissaro Bhikkhu suggests that the idea of a wheel (or cycle), a common image for DO, is a simplified image that is inadequate as a depiction of the complexity of the processes leading to suffering and the undermining of that process. IIRC, this has to do with the interlocking feedback loops that he says are characteristic of non-linear systems (I'm not educated in such matters). This is from The Shape of Suffering: A Study of Dependent Co-arising
https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index ... fsuffering
Paticca samuppada contains a core teaching of buddhism. And hence each condition seperately has to be studied in depth to understand the whole process of paticca samuppada. The 12 elements for formation of paticca samuppada are: Avijja, Sankhara ( karma formations), Vingnana( consciousness) , nama-rupa, salayatana, Vedana, Tanha( craving) , upadana (clinging),
Bhava (process of becoming) , jati ( rebirth) , jara maranam ( death sorrow lamentation pain grief and despair) .
Each element in the link of these 12 conditions is a process by itself which process will be an individual in depth study.
eg: nama rupa is one of the most discussed processes.
and jara maranam is this 'suffering' mentioned.

Rberry
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by Rberry » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:18 am

Suffering or "Dukkha" is caused by wrong view of the the natural phenomena of our bodies, feelings, mind and everything which is impermanence. We expect things to satisfy us permanently when they inherently can't, as everything is constantly changing. Our expectation of things to be permanent triggers a deep sense of unsatisfactory that lingers at the edge of our consciousness, as Bhikku Bodhi puts it.

Letting go of our craving for sensual pleasure, desire for becoming and not becoming will lead us to Nibbana or liberation from this feeling of affliction, sorrow and lamentation by developing right view (Four Noble Truths) and following the Noble Eightfold Path.

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dylanj
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by dylanj » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:09 am

it's both & also other things as well, all of the links of dependent origination are causes of suffering, and none of them needs to be singled out or made primary or above the others, not even ignorance. the links of dependent origination, the arising-process itself, is "the whole mass of suffering".

take a look at the Dvayatānupassanā sutta if you don't believe me, here's some excerpts

“‘Whatever suffering arises, all is caused by consciousness’, this is one observation. ‘With the complete ending of all consciousness there is no arising of suffering’, this is a second observation.
“‘Whatever suffering arises, all is caused by contact’, this is one observation. ‘With the complete ending of all contact there is no arising of suffering’, this is a second observation.
“‘Whatever suffering arises, all is caused by feeling’, this is one observation. ‘With the complete ending of all feeling there is no arising of suffering’, this is a second observation.
...
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by dylanj » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:48 am

also to those saying ignorance is root & others are not...

the buddha himself says "upadhi dukkha mulanti", "attachment is the root of suffering"
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Dinsdale
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:51 am

dylanj wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:09 am
“‘Whatever suffering arises, all is caused by consciousness’, this is one observation. ‘With the complete ending of all consciousness there is no arising of suffering’, this is a second observation.
So the goal is cessation of consciousness? What would that be like, practically speaking?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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