suffering is caused by ????

[dudette]

Ok someone told me that buddha taught that suffering is caused by ignorance and NOT attachment.
Is this true?


By my understanding, buddha taught and theravada teaches that suffering is caused by attachment (you are attached to something which is changing) and ignorance (you can do something not knowing the effect of the action which brings you suffering).

am I correct?

[Spiny Norman]

Ok someone told me that buddha taught that suffering is caused by ignorance and NOT attachment.
Is this true?

Put simply, the root cause of suffering is ignorance ( dependent origination ), while the proximate cause is craving ( Second Noble Truth ).

[JohnK]

Another way to say it perhaps:
It is ignorance of the Dhamma (especially of the 4NTs) that keeps us craving (in spite of the suffering it produces).

[cappuccino]

life is inherently difficult,
usually translated as life is suffering

[TamHanhHi]

"Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging [i.e. form, feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness] are suffering.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for renewed becoming (bhava)—accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there—i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming….” —SN 56.11

Ultimately, birth, death, and rebirth—both moment-to-moment and in further lives—is stressful. Pleasant feelings don't last. Desires change. People separate. All phenomena are subject to change. When the mind is released from endless craving and clinging, which is never satisfying, the cycle is destroyed, both moment-to-moment and thereafter.

[Kim OHara]

We have to remember that "suffering' is not an exact translation of "dukkha" although it is the one used most commonly. Some teachers prefer "stress" while "unsatisfactoriness" and "ill-ease" have also been suggested.
None of them is quite right, though, as https://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/ ... ukkha.html says.

"Life is suffering" seems to me to be too strong, too negative. It's short, simple and memorable but something like, "Life can never be entirely happy," is nearly as close to the meaning of "dukkha" and not nearly as brutal.
Whichever way you phrase it, the unsatisfactoriness/suffering comes from clinging to things which are inevitably impermanent. If we knew this (or when we learn this), our suffering/unhappiness can be relieved.


Kim

[Bundokji]

Ok someone told me that buddha taught that suffering is caused by ignorance and NOT attachment.
Is this true?

Not entirely. Someone adopting this view is not taking the four noble truths as one unified teachings. The four noble truths are intertwined because the fourth noble truth starts with "right view" which is the very understanding of the four noble truths! Not understanding suffering, the origin of suffering, the end of suffering and the path to end suffering is ignorance.

So, when that "someone" told you that suffering is caused by ignorance and NOT attachment, he is separating the two, while the two are inseparable.

By my understanding, buddha taught and theravada teaches that suffering is caused by attachment (you are attached to something which is changing) and ignorance (you can do something not knowing the effect of the action which brings you suffering).

am I correct?

Ignorance is not only not knowing, but also ignoring (there is an intentional aspect to it), this is why the training in wisdom includes two parts:

1- Right view: which is the understanding of the four noble truths
2- Right intention: which includes the intention to renunciate(which is the opposite of attachment)

So, ignorance is deeper than merely not knowing in the traditional sense of the word. If ignorance only means "not knowing" then people would get enlightened once they listen to the four noble truths because the cause of suffering becomes known to them!

[Saengnapha]

Ignorance is not only not knowing, but also ignoring (there is an intentional aspect to it), this is why the training in wisdom includes two parts:

1- Right view: which is the understanding of the four noble truths
2- Right intention: which includes the intention to renunciate(which is the opposite of attachment)

Bundokji,

How long and how many times must we ignore ignorance before it disappears?. Do you really believe what you are saying? It doesn't play out like this. Just look at your own experience. Do you judge your own experience and hear this voice that says 'change this, renounce that, don't do that, think like this? That voice is part of the difficulty in resolving 'suffering'.

[Bundokji]

How long and how many times must we ignore ignorance before it disappears?. Do you really believe what you are saying? It doesn't play out like this. Just look at your own experience. Do you judge your own experience and hear this voice that says 'change this, renounce that, don't do that, think like this? That voice is part of the difficulty in resolving 'suffering'.

Saengnapha,

Thanks for your input. Your conclusion that "that voice is part of the difficulty in resolving suffering" is an act of judgement. You seem to be ignoring that

This is "Discovering Theravada" forum and i am not sure this exchange is relevant to the OP, so i suggest

[Saengnapha]

How long and how many times must we ignore ignorance before it disappears?. Do you really believe what you are saying? It doesn't play out like this. Just look at your own experience. Do you judge your own experience and hear this voice that says 'change this, renounce that, don't do that, think like this? That voice is part of the difficulty in resolving 'suffering'.

Saengnapha,

Thanks for your input. Your conclusion that "that voice is part of the difficulty in resolving suffering" is an act of judgement. You seem to be ignoring that

This is "Discovering Theravada" forum and i am not sure this exchange is relevant to the OP, so i suggest

It isn't an act of judgement, it is an observation. There is a difference.

[kverty]

Ignorance is what clouds our minds from seeing reality as it is and craving is what fuels and propels us forward in samsara, the two factors are inter-dependent. Remove craving and ignorance will vanish, but you can't root up craving entirely without practicing vipassana which gradually refines your perception of reality and removes ignorance.

[jweyek]

Just my two cents:an illusory self seeks satisfaction from impermanent and inherently unsatisfactory phenomena. Dukkha.

[deedublew]

Just my two cents:an illusory self seeks satisfaction from impermanent and inherently unsatisfactory phenomena. Dukkha.

[Komuso]

We have to remember that "suffering' is not an exact translation of "dukkha" although it is the one used most commonly. Some teachers prefer "stress" while "unsatisfactoriness" and "ill-ease" have also been suggested.
None of them is quite right, though, as https://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/ ... ukkha.html says.

"Life is suffering" seems to me to be too strong, too negative. It's short, simple and memorable but something like, "Life can never be entirely happy," is nearly as close to the meaning of "dukkha" and not nearly as brutal.
Whichever way you phrase it, the unsatisfactoriness/suffering comes from clinging to things which are inevitably impermanent. If we knew this (or when we learn this), our suffering/unhappiness can be relieved.


Kim

Nicely said

[justindesilva]

The cause of suffering is ignorance as well as craving but not independantly. We can see that they are conditions followed in conditioned arising in paticcasamuppada. Paticcasamupaada is conditional arising with 12 conditions one following the other moving in a cycle.