suffering is caused by ????

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dudette
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suffering is caused by ????

Post by dudette » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:22 pm

Ok someone told me that buddha taught that suffering is caused by ignorance and NOT attachment.
Is this true?


By my understanding, buddha taught and theravada teaches that suffering is caused by attachment (you are attached to something which is changing) and ignorance (you can do something not knowing the effect of the action which brings you suffering).

am I correct?

Dinsdale
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:37 pm

dudette wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:22 pm
Ok someone told me that buddha taught that suffering is caused by ignorance and NOT attachment.
Is this true?
Put simply, the root cause of suffering is ignorance ( dependent origination ), while the proximate cause is craving ( Second Noble Truth ).
Buddha save me from new-agers!

JohnK
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by JohnK » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:59 pm

Another way to say it perhaps:
It is ignorance of the Dhamma (especially of the 4NTs) that keeps us craving (in spite of the suffering it produces).
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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cappuccino
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by cappuccino » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:23 pm

life is inherently difficult,
usually translated as life is suffering

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TamHanhHi
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by TamHanhHi » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:40 pm

"Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging [i.e. form, feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness] are suffering.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for renewed becoming (bhava)—accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there—i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming….” —SN 56.11

Ultimately, birth, death, and rebirth—both moment-to-moment and in further lives—is stressful. Pleasant feelings don't last. Desires change. People separate. All phenomena are subject to change. When the mind is released from endless craving and clinging, which is never satisfying, the cycle is destroyed, both moment-to-moment and thereafter.
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."AN 5.38 :candle: | Blog at http://dhammareflections.wordpress.com

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Kim OHara
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:26 am

We have to remember that "suffering' is not an exact translation of "dukkha" although it is the one used most commonly. Some teachers prefer "stress" while "unsatisfactoriness" and "ill-ease" have also been suggested.
None of them is quite right, though, as https://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/ ... ukkha.html says.

"Life is suffering" seems to me to be too strong, too negative. It's short, simple and memorable but something like, "Life can never be entirely happy," is nearly as close to the meaning of "dukkha" and not nearly as brutal.
Whichever way you phrase it, the unsatisfactoriness/suffering comes from clinging to things which are inevitably impermanent. If we knew this (or when we learn this), our suffering/unhappiness can be relieved.

:namaste:
Kim

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Bundokji
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by Bundokji » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:58 am

dudette wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:22 pm
Ok someone told me that buddha taught that suffering is caused by ignorance and NOT attachment.
Is this true?
Not entirely. Someone adopting this view is not taking the four noble truths as one unified teachings. The four noble truths are intertwined because the fourth noble truth starts with "right view" which is the very understanding of the four noble truths! Not understanding suffering, the origin of suffering, the end of suffering and the path to end suffering is ignorance.

So, when that "someone" told you that suffering is caused by ignorance and NOT attachment, he is separating the two, while the two are inseparable.

dudette wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:22 pm
By my understanding, buddha taught and theravada teaches that suffering is caused by attachment (you are attached to something which is changing) and ignorance (you can do something not knowing the effect of the action which brings you suffering).

am I correct?
Ignorance is not only not knowing, but also ignoring (there is an intentional aspect to it), this is why the training in wisdom includes two parts:

1- Right view: which is the understanding of the four noble truths
2- Right intention: which includes the intention to renunciate(which is the opposite of attachment)

So, ignorance is deeper than merely not knowing in the traditional sense of the word. If ignorance only means "not knowing" then people would get enlightened once they listen to the four noble truths because the cause of suffering becomes known to them!
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:34 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:58 am

Ignorance is not only not knowing, but also ignoring (there is an intentional aspect to it), this is why the training in wisdom includes two parts:

1- Right view: which is the understanding of the four noble truths
2- Right intention: which includes the intention to renunciate(which is the opposite of attachment)
Bundokji,

How long and how many times must we ignore ignorance before it disappears?. Do you really believe what you are saying? It doesn't play out like this. Just look at your own experience. Do you judge your own experience and hear this voice that says 'change this, renounce that, don't do that, think like this? That voice is part of the difficulty in resolving 'suffering'.

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Bundokji
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by Bundokji » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:49 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:34 am
How long and how many times must we ignore ignorance before it disappears?. Do you really believe what you are saying? It doesn't play out like this. Just look at your own experience. Do you judge your own experience and hear this voice that says 'change this, renounce that, don't do that, think like this? That voice is part of the difficulty in resolving 'suffering'.
Saengnapha,

Thanks for your input. Your conclusion that "that voice is part of the difficulty in resolving suffering" is an act of judgement. You seem to be ignoring that :tongue:

This is "Discovering Theravada" forum and i am not sure this exchange is relevant to the OP, so i suggest :focus:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:02 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:49 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:34 am
How long and how many times must we ignore ignorance before it disappears?. Do you really believe what you are saying? It doesn't play out like this. Just look at your own experience. Do you judge your own experience and hear this voice that says 'change this, renounce that, don't do that, think like this? That voice is part of the difficulty in resolving 'suffering'.
Saengnapha,

Thanks for your input. Your conclusion that "that voice is part of the difficulty in resolving suffering" is an act of judgement. You seem to be ignoring that :tongue:

This is "Discovering Theravada" forum and i am not sure this exchange is relevant to the OP, so i suggest :focus:
It isn't an act of judgement, it is an observation. There is a difference.

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kverty
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by kverty » Sun May 06, 2018 5:21 pm

Ignorance is what clouds our minds from seeing reality as it is and craving is what fuels and propels us forward in samsara, the two factors are inter-dependent. Remove craving and ignorance will vanish, but you can't root up craving entirely without practicing vipassana which gradually refines your perception of reality and removes ignorance.

jweyek
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by jweyek » Sun May 06, 2018 10:31 pm

Just my two cents:an illusory self seeks satisfaction from impermanent and inherently unsatisfactory phenomena. Dukkha.

deedublew
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by deedublew » Tue May 08, 2018 1:21 am

jweyek wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 10:31 pm
Just my two cents:an illusory self seeks satisfaction from impermanent and inherently unsatisfactory phenomena. Dukkha.
:namaste: :namaste:

Komuso
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by Komuso » Tue May 08, 2018 9:45 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:26 am
We have to remember that "suffering' is not an exact translation of "dukkha" although it is the one used most commonly. Some teachers prefer "stress" while "unsatisfactoriness" and "ill-ease" have also been suggested.
None of them is quite right, though, as https://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/ ... ukkha.html says.

"Life is suffering" seems to me to be too strong, too negative. It's short, simple and memorable but something like, "Life can never be entirely happy," is nearly as close to the meaning of "dukkha" and not nearly as brutal.
Whichever way you phrase it, the unsatisfactoriness/suffering comes from clinging to things which are inevitably impermanent. If we knew this (or when we learn this), our suffering/unhappiness can be relieved.

:namaste:
Kim
Nicely said :namaste:
:sage: Komuso
:buddha1: Namo Amitabha Buddhaya

justindesilva
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by justindesilva » Wed May 09, 2018 7:45 am

The cause of suffering is ignorance as well as craving but not independantly. We can see that they are conditions followed in conditioned arising in paticcasamuppada. Paticcasamupaada is conditional arising with 12 conditions one following the other moving in a cycle.

JohnK
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by JohnK » Wed May 09, 2018 3:19 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:45 am
...Paticcasamupaada is conditional arising with 12 conditions one following the other moving in a cycle.
It is interesting that Thanissaro Bhikkhu suggests that the idea of a wheel (or cycle), a common image for DO, is a simplified image that is inadequate as a depiction of the complexity of the processes leading to suffering and the undermining of that process. IIRC, this has to do with the interlocking feedback loops that he says are characteristic of non-linear systems (I'm not educated in such matters). This is from The Shape of Suffering: A Study of Dependent Co-arising
https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index ... fsuffering
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

justindesilva
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Re: suffering is caused by ????

Post by justindesilva » Thu May 10, 2018 3:48 am

JohnK wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 3:19 pm
justindesilva wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:45 am
...Paticcasamupaada is conditional arising with 12 conditions one following the other moving in a cycle.
It is interesting that Thanissaro Bhikkhu suggests that the idea of a wheel (or cycle), a common image for DO, is a simplified image that is inadequate as a depiction of the complexity of the processes leading to suffering and the undermining of that process. IIRC, this has to do with the interlocking feedback loops that he says are characteristic of non-linear systems (I'm not educated in such matters). This is from The Shape of Suffering: A Study of Dependent Co-arising
https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index ... fsuffering
Paticca samuppada contains a core teaching of buddhism. And hence each condition seperately has to be studied in depth to understand the whole process of paticca samuppada. The 12 elements for formation of paticca samuppada are: Avijja, Sankhara ( karma formations), Vingnana( consciousness) , nama-rupa, salayatana, Vedana, Tanha( craving) , upadana (clinging),
Bhava (process of becoming) , jati ( rebirth) , jara maranam ( death sorrow lamentation pain grief and despair) .
Each element in the link of these 12 conditions is a process by itself which process will be an individual in depth study.
eg: nama rupa is one of the most discussed processes.
and jara maranam is this 'suffering' mentioned.

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