duality and non-duality in theravada

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dudette
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duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by dudette » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:22 am

None of the introductionS to theravada buddhism mention anything about "experiencing non-duality".
However, Some buddhists say that they meditate in order to experience non-duality, and it is an important part of buddhism and path to enlightenment.
How important is experiencing non-duality in theravada buddhism? Is it a necessity in theravada and path to enlightenment?

2600htz
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by 2600htz » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:07 pm

Hello:

But what do you mean by duality and non-duality?

Regards.

dudette
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by dudette » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:45 pm

2600htz wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:07 pm
Hello:

But what do you mean by duality and non-duality?

Regards.
experiencing Samadhi

2600htz
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by 2600htz » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:22 pm

Hello Dudette:

The thing is that non-duality is not a buddhist concept, its part of hinduism (vedanta).
And since the idea of Atman (or true self) is rejected by every school of buddism, because its "personality view".
Talking about the non-duality "of the atman with the Brahman" doesn´t stand a chance :).

Regards.

paul
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by paul » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:58 pm

Samadhi and insight are the two types of meditation in Theravada and both are necessary. Samadhi supports insight as stillness of mind is necessary for the practitioner to be able to examine the mind's responses to external events and to be selective about which responses need to be discarded, and which need to be cultivated. That is how progress is made along the path.

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cappuccino
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:45 am

there is the realm of infinite consciousness, in Buddhist cosmology

there is the realm of nothingness

although "nirvana" transcends these realms

Saengnapha
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:15 am

paul wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:58 pm
Samadhi and insight are the two types of meditation in Theravada and both are necessary. Samadhi supports insight as stillness of mind is necessary for the practitioner to be able to examine the mind's responses to external events and to be selective about which responses need to be discarded, and which need to be cultivated. That is how progress is made along the path.
I would have to disagree with your labeling of meditation into samadhi and insight. In Samatha meditation, samadhi is the sought after result. Insight is another matter entirely. You cannot practice insight. Insight seems to be a possible outcome of keen observation which does not involve picking and choosing what does or doesn't need to be cultivated. Real observation is not looking for a result. Results are sought after by the discursive mind. They are thought induced/fabricated. The mislabeling of Satipatthana as insight meditation which is taught as a progressive path in time is a misunderstanding, IMO. Insight is not thought induced and is not relative to time or cultivation which is a movement of thought creating an illusion of person doing something to achieve something. If this point is not understood, observation is not engaged properly.

auto
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by auto » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:04 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:15 am
paul wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:58 pm
Samadhi and insight are the two types of meditation in Theravada and both are necessary. Samadhi supports insight as stillness of mind is necessary for the practitioner to be able to examine the mind's responses to external events and to be selective about which responses need to be discarded, and which need to be cultivated. That is how progress is made along the path.
I would have to disagree with your labeling of meditation into samadhi and insight. In Samatha meditation, samadhi is the sought after result. Insight is another matter entirely. You cannot practice insight. Insight seems to be a possible outcome of keen observation which does not involve picking and choosing what does or doesn't need to be cultivated. Real observation is not looking for a result. Results are sought after by the discursive mind. They are thought induced/fabricated. The mislabeling of Satipatthana as insight meditation which is taught as a progressive path in time is a misunderstanding, IMO. Insight is not thought induced and is not relative to time or cultivation which is a movement of thought creating an illusion of person doing something to achieve something. If this point is not understood, observation is not engaged properly.
insight is what it says, you see with an inner eye for a moment, after that you can revisit it. Liberating insight are the best becase you can know what causes ailments and trouble for you and now can work on preventing it by cultivatingh right way directly without going through being sick prolonged time.

Saengnapha
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:03 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:04 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:15 am
paul wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:58 pm
Samadhi and insight are the two types of meditation in Theravada and both are necessary. Samadhi supports insight as stillness of mind is necessary for the practitioner to be able to examine the mind's responses to external events and to be selective about which responses need to be discarded, and which need to be cultivated. That is how progress is made along the path.
I would have to disagree with your labeling of meditation into samadhi and insight. In Samatha meditation, samadhi is the sought after result. Insight is another matter entirely. You cannot practice insight. Insight seems to be a possible outcome of keen observation which does not involve picking and choosing what does or doesn't need to be cultivated. Real observation is not looking for a result. Results are sought after by the discursive mind. They are thought induced/fabricated. The mislabeling of Satipatthana as insight meditation which is taught as a progressive path in time is a misunderstanding, IMO. Insight is not thought induced and is not relative to time or cultivation which is a movement of thought creating an illusion of person doing something to achieve something. If this point is not understood, observation is not engaged properly.
insight is what it says, you see with an inner eye for a moment, after that you can revisit it. Liberating insight are the best becase you can know what causes ailments and trouble for you and now can work on preventing it by cultivatingh right way directly without going through being sick prolonged time.
If you can revisit it, it is a dead thing, of the past, a memory, not living. It is one of the ways we fool ourselves to believe we have gotten something.

auto
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by auto » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:11 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:03 pm
auto wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:04 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:15 am


I would have to disagree with your labeling of meditation into samadhi and insight. In Samatha meditation, samadhi is the sought after result. Insight is another matter entirely. You cannot practice insight. Insight seems to be a possible outcome of keen observation which does not involve picking and choosing what does or doesn't need to be cultivated. Real observation is not looking for a result. Results are sought after by the discursive mind. They are thought induced/fabricated. The mislabeling of Satipatthana as insight meditation which is taught as a progressive path in time is a misunderstanding, IMO. Insight is not thought induced and is not relative to time or cultivation which is a movement of thought creating an illusion of person doing something to achieve something. If this point is not understood, observation is not engaged properly.
insight is what it says, you see with an inner eye for a moment, after that you can revisit it. Liberating insight are the best becase you can know what causes ailments and trouble for you and now can work on preventing it by cultivatingh right way directly without going through being sick prolonged time.
If you can revisit it, it is a dead thing, of the past, a memory, not living. It is one of the ways we fool ourselves to believe we have gotten something.
Insight causes erect state. Smaller form of that state is cold sudden feeling from arousal of past memory. Also there happen a dreamlet state after an erect state, dreamlet state originates from throat, after that dreamlet you will be gotten dark soft state in your minds eye in area of physical eyes or forehead.
Meanwhile between these states there is breath patterns and feelings and what not else to cultivate, its just occurs and you do it, you will proceed faster if you search triggers or situations what get you faster through these processes.

it doesn't even go there where you start feel pumps or pulses in various places in body, like in lower abdomen or perineum area its like 160-200 beats per minute. And at some point stomach start work and start heal system from too much coldness.

I for an example didn't knew that awareness cultivation doesn't go beyond throat, i knew that it is not last steps on a circle. If you cultivate awareness it is cultivating cold, death, sickness (thats a good thing).

JohnK
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by JohnK » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:49 pm

dudette wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:22 am
None of the introductionS to theravada buddhism mention anything about "experiencing non-duality".
However, Some buddhists say that they meditate in order to experience non-duality, and it is an important part of buddhism and path to enlightenment.
How important is experiencing non-duality in theravada buddhism? Is it a necessity in theravada and path to enlightenment?
You might check this book out:
https://www.abhayagiri.org/books/423-sm ... t-mountain
Small Boat, Great Mountain: Theravadan Reflections on The Natural Great Perfection by Amaro Bhikkhu.
(An aside: I don't think that "non-dual" and "experiencing samadhi" are the same thing.)
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

JohnK
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Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by JohnK » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:58 pm

dudette wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:22 am
None of the introductionS to theravada buddhism mention anything about "experiencing non-duality"...
I thought I would quote/excerpt (and boldface) some from the book I mentioned above:
In the Beginning
The last part of the pattern I want to discuss is actually at the beginning
of the story, at the very start of the dependent origination
cycle: Avijja paccaya sankhara, ignorance conditions formations...
...“Ignorance complicates everything.” What does this mean?
Sankhara is a broad term that fundamentally means “that
which is compounded,” and it gets translated many ways: karmic
formations, concoctions, fabrications, volitional formations,
subject/object duality—there’s a large constellation of meanings.
What this phrase, “Ignorance complicates everything,” is saying
is that as soon as there is no vijja, as soon as rigpa is lost, then
instantly the seeds of duality start to form and sprout. There’s
an observer and an observed; there is a this and a that; a here
and a there; a me and a world.
Even at its most subtle, germinal
stage, this is what it is talking about. As soon as there is avijja,
sankhara is caused to be there. Then it becomes a vortex; the
tiniest little movement and it starts to grow, to spiral out.
Sankhara paccaya viññanam: sankhara conditions consciousness.
Consciousness conditions mind and body. Mind and body
conditions the six senses. The six senses condition feeling, craving,
and so on.
By the time we get down to the six senses, there is the body
here and there’s the world out there, and we experience them as
apparently solid realities.
If it’s only just started to head down the line, it’s a matter of
quickly catching it. We can step back and see where an observer
and an observed have already been created. As it is said, “Sankhara
sticks its head out” like a tortoise—meaning some form
is trying to poke its head into rigpa. But if 80 percent of the rigpa,
the knowing, is there, we can still catch it and come back to rest
in that open awareness.
We are talking about the subtle area of movement where,
as soon as there is a slippage of mindfulness or the faintest coloration
or distortion of that awareness, duality kicks in. And
that’s the seed of the whole thing.
If it’s seen at that point and
not followed, then that seed, that primal movement, will not
grow further, it will cease right there. If it’s not seen, the vortex
will build and build until there is “me in here, the world out
there.”
And then: “I want it, I can’t stand it, I’ve got to have it.
How marvelous, how wonderful, I am going places”—sorrow,
lamentation, pain, grief and despair.
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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Grigoris
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Re: duality and non-duality in theravada

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:16 am

dudette wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:45 pm
experiencing Samadhi
Samadhi is just the term for meditative absorption or concentration. It is the eighth spoke of the Eightfold Noble Path. There is a tonne of literature in the Pali Canon and commentaries regarding this.

Samadhi Sutta
Access to Insight site search
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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