Nibbana

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.
santa100
Posts: 3112
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Nibbana

Post by santa100 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:05 am

SarathW wrote:Isn't need something is Dukkha
Depends on how you define "something". Is the need to go to "the Park" Dukkha? No, 'cuz it's allayed once youre there. Is the need for sensual pleasure Dukkha? Yes, 'cuz sensual pleasure is a bottomless pit.
:anjali:

SarathW
Posts: 10124
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Nibbana

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:36 am

Code: Select all

Depends on how you define "something". Is the need to go to "the Park" Dukkha?
It depends what you mean by the park.
I do not like parks but I like forests.
I think need to do anything is Dukkha unless you act on compassion or to maintain the bare minimum such as a monk.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
Posts: 3112
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Nibbana

Post by santa100 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:50 am

SarathW wrote:I do not like parks but I like forests.
Sounds like you have a "need" for preferences then... :smile:
SarathW wrote:I think need to do anything is Dukkha unless you act on compassion or to maintain the bare minimum such as a monk.
Ok, problem is that by using your own premise, that "a need to do anything is Dukkha", then the above is a self-contradicting statement. If you "need" to act on compassion, or "need" to maintain the bare minimum such as a monk, then you are suffering!

SarathW
Posts: 10124
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Nibbana

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:24 am

Isn't Buddha act on compassion?
What is the goal of a living Arahant?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4205
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: Nibbana

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:41 am

SarathW wrote:Nibbana is for people who do not want anything.
The Buddha said it was for people “who feel” (vediyamānassa).
  • “In dependence on the six elements the descent of a future embryo occurs. When the descent takes place, there is name-and-form; with name-and-form as condition, there are the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition, there is contact; with contact as condition, there is feeling. Now it is for one who feels that I proclaim: ‘This is suffering,’ and ‘This is the origin of suffering,’ and ‘This is the cessation of suffering,’ and ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”
    Titthāyatana Sutta

SarathW
Posts: 10124
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Nibbana

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:33 am

The Buddha said it was for people “who feel” (vediyamānassa).
Thank you Bhante.
Could you explain this in your words( language). I could not relate this statement to Sutta you provided.
:anjali:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1535
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Nibbana

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:54 am

If you think there is no self, that would imply annihilation.

If you think all is not-self, this doesn't imply annihilation.

Many think in terms of the former, the truth is the latter…

pegembara
Posts: 1300
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Nibbana

Post by pegembara » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:16 am

Myotai wrote:I'm sorry if this has been covered before - I suspect it has as it's​ a question I'll wager many have pondered before.

Many of the descriptions I read of the final goal seem very much like a complete anihilation rather than an end worthy of so much effort. Having a good solid practice living in a forest in Thailand seems favourable to no sentience at all.

What have I missed in my understanding?

Thanks everyone...

I would say the goal is freedom from desire. The pursuit of happiness(what is desired) is the cause of dukkha for oneself and others.

"Both now & before is it painful to the touch, very hot & scorching, master Gotama. It's just that when the man was a leper covered with sores and infections, devoured by worms, picking the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, his faculties were impaired, which was why, even though the fire was actually painful to the touch, he had the skewed perception of 'pleasant.'"

"In the same way, Magandiya, sensual pleasures in the past were painful to the touch, very hot & scorching; sensual pleasures in the future will be painful to the touch, very hot & scorching; sensual pleasures at present are painful to the touch, very hot & scorching; but when beings are not free from passion for sensual pleasures — devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever — their faculties are impaired, which is why, even though sensual pleasures are actually painful to the touch, they have the skewed perception of 'pleasant.'

"Now what do you think, Magandiya? Have you ever seen or heard of a king or king's minister — enjoying himself, provided & endowed with the five strings of sensuality, without abandoning sensual craving, without removing sensual fever — who has dwelt or will dwell or is dwelling free from thirst, his mind inwardly at peace?"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
Posts: 10124
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Nibbana

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:56 am

cappuccino wrote:If you think there is no self, that would imply annihilation.

If you think all is not-self, this doesn't imply annihilation.

Many think in terms of the former, the truth is the latter…
Do you think there is a self outside the all?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1178
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: Bear Republic

Re: Nibbana

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:48 am

Nibbana is total annihilation... it is the total annihilation of greed, hate, and delusion. Drowning in a sea of ideas, clinging to perceptions and notions, one will not pierce ignorance and extract wisdom. Something like that anyway. I think you should really read and take to heart the Yamaka Sutta:
"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"

"Previously, my friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Dhamma, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and have broken through to the Dhamma."

"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I also really like what fellow forum member Nana says on his blog:
The noble eightfold path has a clearly defined and very specific final goal (pariyosāna), a precise destination (parāyana). This goal is the elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, and the elimination of delusion. The realization of this goal is variously called the “gnosis and vision of liberation” (vimuttiñāṇadassana), the “gnosis of elimination” (khayeñāṇa), and the “gnosis of nibbāna” (nibbāna ñāṇa).
The Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta of the Saṃyuttanikāya offers thirty-three epithets for this goal, almost all of which are either metaphors or evocative terms suggestive of the various facets of this goal. But each of these epithets is then explicitly and unequivocally defined as the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion. SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta (1-44 combined & abridged):
And what, monks, is the not-fabricated (asaṅkhata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-fabricated.

And what, monks, is the not-inclined (anata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-inclined.

And what, monks, is the outflowless (anāsava)...the truth (sacca)...the farther shore (pāra)...the subtle (nipuṇa)...the very hard to see (sududdasa)...the unaging (ajajjara)...the stable (dhuva)...the undisintegrating (apalokita)...the non-indicative (anidassana)...the unproliferated (nippapañca)...the peaceful (santa)...the death-free (amata)...the sublime (paṇīta)...the auspicious (siva)...the secure (khema)...the elimination of craving (taṇhākkhaya)...the wonderful (acchariya)...the amazing (abbhuta)...the calamity-free (anītika)...the dhamma free of calamity (anītikadhamma)... is the extinguishment (nibbāna)...is the unafflicted (abyāpajjha)... is dispassion (virāga)... is purity (suddhi)...is freedom (mutti)...the unadhesive (anālaya)...the island (dīpa)...the cave (leṇa)...is the shelter (tāṇa)... is the refuge (saraṇa)...the destination (parāyana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the destination.
Of course, the most commonly used of these epithets is nibbāna.
Beyond the attainment of this goal, early Pāḷi Buddhism has nothing to say. SN 48.42 Uṇṇābhabrāhmaṇa Sutta informs us as follows:

“But master Gotama, what is it that nibbāna takes recourse in?”

“You have gone beyond the range of questioning, brāhmaṇa. You were unable to grasp the limit of questioning. For, brāhmaṇa, the holy life is lived with nibbāna as its ground, nibbāna as its destination, nibbāna as its final goal.”

There are two reasons why the Buddha had nothing to say about any matters beyond the attainment of this goal. The first is that any view regarding the postmortem existence or non-existence of an awakened arahant is not conducive to actually attaining the goal. It “does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.” It is considered a fetter of view (diṭṭhisaṃyojana). MN 72 Aggivacchagotta Sutta:
The view that after death a tathāgata exists is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata both exists and does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.
The other reason, as suggested by the Buddha’s exchange with the brāhmaṇa Uṇṇābha already mentioned, is that there is no way to describe or designate or define anything beyond the attainment of this goal.
The most elegant and subtle aspect of the dhamma expounded in the Nikāyas is that it doesn’t impose any sort of metaphysical view regarding the nature of the liberated mind. This is clear in the sense of the liberated, measureless mind → appamāṇacetasa, being free from any sort of measuring → pamāṇa.
It is precisely this which differentiates early Buddhism from every other religious and secular worldview. An arahant cannot be measured even while alive, and specifically, cannot be measured using the criteria of the aggregates. Since this is the case, there is nothing whatsoever that can be posited about the postmortem arahant. Language and logical inference don’t apply to that which cannot be qualified or measured. There is no criteria for measurement.

http://measurelessmind.ca/pariyosana.html
:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

User avatar
Myotai
Posts: 513
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:39 am

Re: Nibbana

Post by Myotai » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:48 am

SarathW wrote:
Ask yourself why you see this as something bad.
I think he does not see this life as Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
It appears he is seeking everlasting unchanging happiness in this world. (via six senses)
I see it as something bad as it's equates to suicide and then an anihilation of, well everything.

I DO see the world in terms of a play of Emptiness and included in this are ADA ...My mind imputes suffering due to a fundamental misunderstanding of how self and other (phenomena) exist. Being utterly unaware of anything mentally or otherwise seems like a perfected state of amnesia/anesthesia. Currently that is.

I'm aware of a need 'to exist' or a wish to exist. But is that so bad? I don't think there is a way to accomplish a permanent state of happiness in this world as I now perceive it. But there are times when I do have a strong sense of ok(ness) with it all.


_/|\_

User avatar
The Thinker
Posts: 805
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:12 pm
Location: UK

Re: Nibbana

Post by The Thinker » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:19 am

Nibbana is the goal to be realised now! This is it.
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1535
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Nibbana

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:41 am

Myotai wrote:I'm aware of a need to exist … But is that so bad?
The truth is neither existence, nor annihilation.

Neither self, nor no self.

The truth is in between, in the middle.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

SarathW
Posts: 10124
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Nibbana

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:03 am

The truth is in between, in the middle.
Buddha did not say this.
What he said was without resorting to two extremes (existence and non-existence) he taught Dependent Origination.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

R1111 = rightviewftw
Posts: 1019
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Nibbana

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:54 am

Nibbana is a concept with a neither beginning or an end, no here or there, no before or after, no you or me, no him, her or other. Nobody to do anything, to think of anything, no thing, no concept, no space, no infinity, no past, future or now. With annihilation of conditions for consciousness and perception, conditioned states cease without remainder. Not all states cease only conditioned states cease, the only unconditioned state conceptualized by mankind is that of Nibbana.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests