Regarding Cula Sotapanna

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aspirant
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Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby aspirant » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:04 pm

Greetings,

I have two questions regarding a Cula Sotapanna. Sutta or commentary references would be helpful.

1. Will a Cula Sotapanna become a Sotapanna in the same lifetime?
2. Is a Cula Sotapanna an Ariya? i.e. One on the path to become a Sotapanna but not got sotapatti phala?

I was reading a http://sotapannanava.blogspot.in/2011/06/first-stage-of-four-stages-of.html and some things became confusing.
A Sula Sotapanna is assured for a rebirth in good destinations for one life and a Maha Sotapanna has been assured absolutely.

I used to think when one becomes culasotapanna, one continues on dhamma path and eventually becomes sotapanna.
http://www.vridhamma.org/en2007-06
Before one becomes sotāpanna, one has to develop oneself to becomes a cūḷa-sotāpanna, a minor sotāpanna. A sotāpanna starts flowing in the stream of liberation, and is bound to reach the final goal of full liberation. A cūḷa-sotāpanna starts flowing in the stream of Dhamma and is bound to become a sotāpanna.


thanku,
Atta hi attano natho atta hi attano gati;
-Dhammapada - 380
You are your own master, you make your own future.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:06 pm

All one can be sure of is that speculation about how long the journey will take will not shorten the journey.
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Twilight
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby Twilight » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:57 pm

The difference is explained here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
At Savatthi. "Monks, forms are inconstant, changeable, alterable. Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

The only "test" for been a sotopanna that I know of is this (SN 48.5):
Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom. These are the five faculties.

When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple understands as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these five faculties, then he is called a noble disciple who is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. ”
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

SarathW
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby SarathW » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:02 pm

The term Sotapanna has a broad application.
The main ingredient to become Sotapanna is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path.
So Cula Sotapanna has the faith and wisdom however he has not started following the path.
So I would say after death he may have a good re-birth.

So answer to your question.

1. Will a Cula Sotapanna become a Sotapanna in the same lifetime?
It Depends. Only if he start following the Noble Eightfold Path

2. Is a Cula Sotapanna an Ariya? i.e. One on the path to become a Sotapanna but not got sotapatti phala?
No. He has not enter the path as yet.

There is a good post by Ven. Dhammanando based on Sutta.
But I can't find it. The following may some help.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=434&p=4664&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby santa100 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:12 pm

aspirant wrote:1. Will a Cula Sotapanna become a Sotapanna in the same lifetime?

According to the Commentary, yes:
SN 22.123 wrote:The practitioner “who firmly believes these truths [is convinced of these truths], is called a faith-follower (saddhā’nusārī). The one “who accepts these truths after pondering over them with some wisdom thus, is called a truth-follower (dhammânusātī). The Commentators call these individuals “lesser streamwinners” (cūḷa sotāpanna), that is, streamwinners-to-be.

And from SN 25.1:
One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.


Regarding 2nd question, using the same line of reasoning, if cula-sotapanna is streamwinner-to-be, and that streamwinner is Ariya, then cula-sotapanna would be Ariya-to-be.

SarathW
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby SarathW » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:13 am

:goodpost: Santa
So answers to the question should be:

1. Will a Cula Sotapanna become a Sotapanna in the same lifetime?
Yes.
2. Is a Cula Sotapanna an Ariya? i.e. One on the path to become a Sotapanna but not got sotapatti phala?
No

Am I correct?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby santa100 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:36 am

Imho, yes.

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Mkoll
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby Mkoll » Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:21 am

I've never heard of the term "cula-sotapanna." From reading this thread, it sounds like dhamma-followers and faith-followers are what are considered cula-sotapannas. Is this correct? Thanks.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

santa100
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby santa100 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:40 am

per the Comy., yes.

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Twilight
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby Twilight » Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:57 am

Doest the fact that dhamma follower and faith follower are destined for achieving sotapanna in this life come from the suttas or from the commentaries ? I am asking because even an arahant can get killed. A dhamma follower can very well get killed. And the only ones the Buddha speaks of as been "fixed in destiny" are sotapannas. He would have said that about dhamma and faith followers too cause been destined to attain sotapanna basically means fixed in destiny or "entered the stream" already.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

santa100
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby santa100 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:23 am

Just for clarification, the notion that dhamma/faith followers are destined to achieve sotapanna in this life is based on sutta SN 25.1. But the concept of dhamma/faith followers considered to be cula-sotapanna is based on comy. Being killed or not is irrelevant. Whether an arahant dies of old age or being killed (the case of Ven. Moggallana), s/he still dies as an arahant. So to be technically accurate, we can safely say that while a Sotapanna has at most 7 more lives until total liberation, a dhamma/faith followers, per SN 25.1, would have at most 7 + 1 = 8 more lives until total liberation. The standard notion of Sotapanna as the go-to standard of "fixed destiny" makes sense 'cuz dhamma/faith followers will also become Sotapanna in this life anyway.

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Twilight
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby Twilight » Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:34 am

I see this is based on suttas. But I am not sure how wide this faith and dhamma follower spectrum is. Every buddhist in the world can be said to fit in. I do not think all buddhist in the world will become sotapanna in this life. Also, is it said somewhere that they may attain stream entry at the moment of death ? I know it is said that at the moment of death the aggregates are seen more clearly and some who had not achieved a fruition in this life might attain it at the moment of death.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

santa100
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby santa100 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:50 am

Of course. If SN 25.1 says that dhamma/faith followers are destined to attain Sotapanna in their life time, and provided that it's not easy to attain Sotapanna, then it naturally follows that it's not easy to attain dhamma/faith following. It's always easy to claim that one has "faith" in the Triple Gem, but can one prove that thru his body, verbal, and thought? Same thing for claiming some deep insight or deep understanding about the Teaching, but it'd be much tougher trying to put the money where your mouth is.

SarathW
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby SarathW » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:06 am

But I am not sure how wide this faith and dhamma follower spectrum is. Every buddhist in the world can be said to fit in.

Good question.
It appeared that you are not from a Buddhist country.
In Sri Lanka there are about 20 millions Buddhist. But only a handful may qualify as faith or Dhamma followers.
Great commitment to observe five precept is the sign of a faith or Dhamma follower.
You will be very lucky, if you can find a male who does not consume alcohol, in Sri Lanka.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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anthbrown84
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby anthbrown84 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:47 am

santa100 wrote:Of course. If SN 25.1 says that dhamma/faith followers are destined to attain Sotapanna in their life time, and provided that it's not easy to attain Sotapanna, then it naturally follows that it's not easy to attain dhamma/faith following. It's always easy to claim that one has "faith" in the Triple Gem, but can one prove that thru his body, verbal, and thought? Same thing for claiming some deep insight or deep understanding about the Teaching, but it'd be much tougher trying to put the money where your mouth is.
It would be nice if anyone knew of any good talks on what it takes to be a dhamma or faith follower!

Does anyone know of any such talks or just further information?
"Your job in practise is to know the difference between the heart and the activity of the heart, that is it, it is that simple" Ajahn Tate

santa100
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby santa100 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:09 pm

See Ven. Bodhi's lecture on MN 70 Kīṭāgiri Sutta at: http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic- ... ikaya.html . The section on dhamma/faith followers is around the 27th minute of the second part of MN 70.

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anthbrown84
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby anthbrown84 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:53 pm

santa100 wrote:See Ven. Bodhi's lecture on MN 70 Kīṭāgiri Sutta at: http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic- ... ikaya.html . The section on dhamma/faith followers is around the 27th minute of the second part of MN 70.


:thanks:

:anjali:
"Your job in practise is to know the difference between the heart and the activity of the heart, that is it, it is that simple" Ajahn Tate

aspirant
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby aspirant » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:55 am

Thank you all for your responses. I do have some clarity regarding faith followers and dhamma followers (Cula Sotapanna) now. :anjali:
Atta hi attano natho atta hi attano gati;
-Dhammapada - 380
You are your own master, you make your own future.

SarathW
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:54 am

Another good link.


viewtopic.php?f=13&t=434
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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_anicca_
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Re: Regarding Cula Sotapanna

Postby _anicca_ » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:38 am

Just as a side note. "Cula" is often translated as "lesser", but a more accurate translation would be "similar to/ like".

With this in mind, culasotapanna means "like a sotapanna".
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:


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