A question on sutra about precepts

[Ervin]

Hi everyone,

When I was looking up on sutras on precepts I was puzzled about the first precept. What got me thinking was that it said I vow not to destroy any life.

Now, how is it possible not to destroy any life? I mean you have to eat utleast plant based diet, and plants are alive.

If it said I take a vow not to destroy any sentient life forms, then you could become vegan and you wouldn't be torturing or destroying any sentient life forms.

Can someone please help me with this, it's holding me back little bit.

Thanks

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Meat is dead already, so eating meat does not break the first precept. Eggs are unfertilised, so they are not viable forms of life.

Plants are non-sentient, so eating plants does not break the first precept even if you pluck fruit to eat it.

Nearly all vegetables and fruits that you can buy in the marketplace are grown after spraying with insecticides, and protected from vermin with guns, traps, and poisons. Any such intentional killing of living beings is done by the farmer and not by the person eating the food.

The Great Vegetarian Debate thread is already 171 pages. Read some of that to get different points of view.

The first precept is broken in four ways:

1. You kill a living being with your own hand
2. You urge another to do it
3. You permit another to do it when you have the power to prevent it
4. You speak in praise of it

[SarathW]

Hi Ervin
I think there is a point what you say.
Do not interpret precepts literally.
That will make you clinging to practice and precepts.
Start with not killing your mother father etc
Then do not kill human.
Then do not kill animals.
Then do not kill insects.
Then do not eat eggs.
Then start moderate in eating.
It is gradual training.

[Ervin]

Thanks Bikhu Pesalla and and Sarah .

Bikhu, you kind of gave me some sort of an answer, but on that vegeterian debate I came find any answers. I mean no direct enough answer to my question.

Thanks

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

On that vegetarian debate I cannot find any answers.

That's pretty impressive — reading 171 pages in 20 minutes, but yes, you won't find many useful answers there, but a lot of different views and opinions.

In the end, you have to examine your own intention when buying food or preparing and eating meals to see if you have any violent intentions towards living-beings.

[Ervin]

Bhiku, I didn't read every answer in the link. I just skimmed through enough to get the gist of them.

But if you abstain from killing yourself and getting someone else to do it for you all you are doing is getting someone else to do the "dirty" work for you.

If you eat any food then you are supporting the killing of a living being( whether plant based food or animal based food ) indirectly whether you pay for it or not.

The only answer I can come up with for what ever is worth is that Buddha considered us smart/ intelligent enough to eventually, if not at the beginning work out that it includes only sentient beings Which means that we have to go vegan. And if there is no vegan food available, then we must eat animal based food, but the fact that we must eat animal based food is not going to release us from the negative karma that we get from that act of eating it.

However, I could be wrong, because there might be sutras that clearly explain the answer to my question contrary to my personal answer.

I eat meet currently because I find it difficult on a vegan diet. One of the reasons for that is because of a injection that I have been on for almost three years. The injection controls my schizophrenia and a specific form of bipolar. ( very bad karma, I obviously have a past). However I am on new better injection so in couple of months whether I end up a Bhuddist or not I plan on going vegetarian that eats only dairy , no egs and then hopefully vegan.

All the best Bhiku, Sarah and all living beings.

Thanks

[Ervin]

I might ad that I read somewhere more than once that Buddha instructed us to question everything even everything that he says.

So, I am only following Buddha's teachings. I am being a good Buddhist.

Thanks

[santa100]

And if there is no vegan food available, then we must eat animal based food, but the fact that we must eat animal based food is not going to release us from the negative karma that we get from that act of eating it.

Not sure where you get that idea from. The Buddha gave pretty clear instruction in MN 55:

"Jīvaka, those who speak thus do not say what has been said by me, but misrepresent me with what is untrue and contrary to fact.

“Jīvaka, I say that there are three instances in which meat should not be eaten: when it is seen, heard, or suspected [that the living being has been slaughtered for oneself]. I say that meat should not be eaten in these three instances. I say that there are three instances in which meat may be eaten: when it is not seen, not heard, and not suspected [that the living being has been slaughtered for oneself]. I say that meat may be eaten in these three instances.

[Ervin]

Santa 100, those ideas where my personal ideas, I didn't get them from any particular teachings.

And thank you very much for correcting me.

So, there you go, we can eat meat.

Thanks

[acinteyyo]

Hi everyone,

When I was looking up on sutras on precepts I was puzzled about the first precept. What got me thinking was that it said I vow not to destroy any life.

Now, how is it possible not to destroy any life? I mean you have to eat utleast plant based diet, and plants are alive.

If it said I take a vow not to destroy any sentient life forms, then you could become vegan and you wouldn't be torturing or destroying any sentient life forms.

Can someone please help me with this, it's holding me back little bit.

Thanks

Hi Ervin,

another thing that might help you is that "panatipata" in the first precept means something like "breathing beings". So one abstains from harming or destroying breathing beings may be a better translation in your situation. The concept of "life" was connected with the breath for the Indians, that's why we also find the translations, not to destroy any "life".

best wishes, acinteyyo

[Ervin]

Thanks accineyo, that's preaty much the way I interpreted it.

And Santa, if you buy a flesh of an breathing being like accineyo put it then, that breathing being then you are again breaking the first precept in my view because let's say lamb is slaughtered for the consumer, buyer of the product.

Now that's maybe fine if you where to start living like a Buddha and you live of donations because sometimes you can't choose , but otherwise you can.

Thanks

[Ervin]

acinteyyo, I thought of something lot earlier actually. And that is that even plants breathe.

Thanks

[lyndon taylor]

Irvin I've just posted a reply to you thread in the Great Vegetarian Debate thread if you would like to check it out, I think you are asking a good question.

[acinteyyo]

acinteyyo, I thought of something lot earlier actually. And that is that even plants breathe.

Thanks

Hi Ervin,
it is important to acknowledge that what "breath" means in this context has to be understood according to the Indian understanding roughly 2500 years ago.