Rebirth

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible in order to double-check alignment to Theravāda orthodoxy.
User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Rebirth

Post by reflection » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:02 pm

nibbuti wrote:
reflection wrote:It means quite literally what it says: that rebirth ends, means there is no more next birth.
Hi reflection

I don't agree. There literalism seems to neglect the Buddha's teaching on Dependent Origination and on compassion toward people.

The usual phrase is "no more coming to any state of being.".

However, when some people read it literally, without taking Dependent Origination into account, they usually come to the state of sadness thinking "rebirth of 'me' will end".

:cry:
Hi,

I think you are generalizing a bit. But I don't see how that neglects dependent origination at all as in my eyes it is exactly that which teaches rebirth. And so the cessation of dependent origination teaches the end of rebirth.

I don't see how compassion or a sense of sadness does have anything to do with that. I know happy, compassionate people who have the same idea.

With metta

placebo23
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:03 pm

Re: Rebirth

Post by placebo23 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:16 pm

So many posts and my confusion is increasing the more opionions are displayed.
I appreciate the postings of you above but I want to express my feelings here in another way.

I already realized how much suffering there is in life because of its impermanent nature. Over years this observation built into a complex of feelings which in buddhism is commonly called samvega. I find the thought about endless rebirths only to die again just shocking and it creates a strong feeling of dismay that there is a continuation of this process of meaningless life. Even so, as you already stated, there is no entity which gets reborn, at least there is a new existence with endless running around in circles, never truly arriving.

So all in all I see birth as painful and a calamity, with it comes only suffering, pain and endless worries and finally you will lose everything (death).

To know that there can be an end to this really is a solacing message.

Kind regards from Germany.
placebo

User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Rebirth

Post by kc2dpt » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:14 am

That's all wonderful to hear, placebo. But I guess now I'm confused as to what your question is.
placebo23 wrote:So all in all I see birth as painful and a calamity, with it comes only suffering, pain and endless worries and finally you will lose everything (death).
The Buddha taught the way to the cessation of birth, the cessation of suffering, pain, and endless worries, the cessation of death. Are you asking if his teachings are true?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

pegembara
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Rebirth

Post by pegembara » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:26 am

I stand corrected.
Kutuhalasala Sutta is interesting. Here the Buddha uses the term being and rebirth of that being. Doesn't this description of rebirth identical to the idea of reincarnation despite some saying that rebirth is not reincarnation?
"This contemplative Gotama — the leader of a community, the leader of a group, the teacher of a group, honored and famous, esteemed as holy by the mass of people — describes a disciple who has died and passed on in terms of places of rebirth: "That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there." But when the disciple is an ultimate person, a foremost person, attained to the foremost attainment, Gotama the contemplative does not describe him, when he has died and passed on, in terms of places of rebirth: "That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there." Instead, he describes him thus: "He has cut through craving, severed the fetter, and by rightly breaking through conceit has made an end of suffering & stress."'

"And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"

"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Elsewhere he describes what this so called "being" is.

"'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Rebirth

Post by Sylvester » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:18 am

pegembara wrote:I stand corrected.
Kutuhalasala Sutta is interesting. Here the Buddha uses the term being and rebirth of that being. Doesn't this description of rebirth identical to the idea of reincarnation despite some saying that rebirth is not reincarnation?
"This contemplative Gotama — the leader of a community, the leader of a group, the teacher of a group, honored and famous, esteemed as holy by the mass of people — describes a disciple who has died and passed on in terms of places of rebirth: "That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there." But when the disciple is an ultimate person, a foremost person, attained to the foremost attainment, Gotama the contemplative does not describe him, when he has died and passed on, in terms of places of rebirth: "That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there." Instead, he describes him thus: "He has cut through craving, severed the fetter, and by rightly breaking through conceit has made an end of suffering & stress."'

"And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"

"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



To be fair, I should just remark that this is a case of the translator inserting an interpretation into the translation. Same comment for kirk5a's comment on uppatti above.

What you have in the text rendered as "reborn" is the past participle uppanna (pp of uppajjati). According to Warder, the verb uppajjati is an emphatic form of atthi (to be) and it can be used in quite a broad range of contexts that do not entail rebecoming of a being, eg it can be applied to knowledge and fetters as well. Both the verb uppajjati and the noun uppatti are related.

I agree with the interpretation of rebirth, given the context.

placebo23
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:03 pm

Re: Rebirth

Post by placebo23 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:41 am

kc2dpt wrote:That's all wonderful to hear, placebo. But I guess now I'm confused as to what your question is.
placebo23 wrote:So all in all I see birth as painful and a calamity, with it comes only suffering, pain and endless worries and finally you will lose everything (death).
The Buddha taught the way to the cessation of birth, the cessation of suffering, pain, and endless worries, the cessation of death. Are you asking if his teachings are true?
In a way yes. I fear it to carry around a body with me, even if this body is merely a concept which is combined from the five aggregates. The question is if there will be an ultimate end to the five stressful aggregates ? Or is buddhas concept of rebirth more associated with a rebirth of an ego senso in mind,. So that after parinirvana there will be a next body but without mind/ego-sense.

Sorry it is difficult to explain.

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Rebirth

Post by kirk5a » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:29 pm

placebo23 wrote: The question is if there will be an ultimate end to the five stressful aggregates ? Or is buddhas concept of rebirth more associated with a rebirth of an ego senso in mind,. So that after parinirvana there will be a next body but without mind/ego-sense.
For the arahant, there will be no arising of a future body after the death of the present one. The suttas are unambiguous about that.
"The ignorance with which the wise person is obstructed, the craving with which he is conjoined, through which this body results: that ignorance has been abandoned by the wise person; that craving has been destroyed. Why is that? The wise person has practiced the holy life for the right ending of stress. Therefore, at the break-up of the body, he is not headed for a [new] body. Not headed for a body, he is entirely freed from birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is, I tell you, entirely freed from stress & suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

placebo23
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:03 pm

Re: Rebirth

Post by placebo23 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:02 pm

Ok. Thank you for clarifying the issue. I see now that buddhism is the right way and it is worthwhile to strive.

Again Thank you all.


:reading: :anjali:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests