Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
ToVincent
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Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by ToVincent »

Our friend auto has asked an interesting question in another thread.
Do Buddhas have no lifespan, which at some point ends; so that mean no rebirth - or Buddhas are beings that know the Way to extend lifespan; hence know the deathless element?

You wrote unborn (ajo) do you mean vayu?


Let's start with this extract:
“There is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned,” - (atthi, bhikkhave, ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ) - If, monks there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, you could not know an escape here from the born, become, made, and conditioned. But because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, therefore you do know an escape from the born, become, made, and conditioned.”
(Ud 8.3)
This is the ajo [a √jan] (the "unproducing", the "unmaking", the "uncreating - as per Vedic creed).
Obviously, Buddhism is concerned with birth (jati), and how to end that birth.
Who would deny that?

Buddha, as a kshatriya, followed the Vedic creed, while questioning it — something that was quite usual at the time (e. g. the Araṇyaka (forest) and Upanishadic "revolutions" in classical, early Brahminism).
Buddha was a conservative, in that he believed in the early Vedic creed (before the Upaniṣadic era,) of an ajo that was quite severalized from the "creation" (something we also find somewhat, in the later Samkhya philosophy).
But Buddha was also a revolutionary for two reasons:
- First, Buddha didn't go for the "One" in the Rig Veda: "What was that ONE who in the Unborn's image has established and fixed firm these worlds' six regions".
- Secondly, Buddha didn't go for a self in that ONE. Buddha didn't go for a self in the Upaniṣadic Brahmā/Prajāpati/Ka." That is to say, a self or what belongs to a self, in the "world/loka", and paṭiccasamuppāda at large.
Note that what had also roiled the all Brahmanic cast, was that Buddha would not consider a Brahmin by mere birth. That was absolutely unforgivable.

Note that the above doesn't go against the early Theravada's view. (Maybe against the later one).

------

Then there is the deathless (amata).
The decrease (khaya can have both the meaning of "decrease", or "destruction") of lust, the decrease of hatred, the decrease of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless.
rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo — idaṃ vuccati amataṃ. ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo amatagāmimaggo.
SN 45.7
This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna:
the removal (vinaya, on the other hand, has the meaning of "to remove from oneself",) of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.
nibbānadhātuyā kho etaṃ, bhikkhu, adhivacanaṃ:
‘rāgavinayo dosavinayo mohavinayo’ti. āsavānaṃ khayo tena vuccatī'ti.
SN 45.7
Knowing directly all the world,
The Enlightened One who understands
Opened the door to the deathless state
By which the safety of Nibbāna may be reached;
Sabbaṃ lokaṃ abhiññāya,
sambuddhena pajānatā;
Vivaṭaṃ amatadvāraṃ,
khemaṃ nibbānapattiyā.


The deathless state seems to be more like a stage, that one has overcome. A state that one has won, which allows him to go further towards nibbāna, in this life.
It's hard to say how one would be reborn, if he were to die at that stage, (although it is called the deathless).
But does amata (amṛta) means "deathless" state, or does it mean "godly" state (as in immortal,) like in the literature of the time (RV.) ?


-------

Then there is nibbāna:

Having nothing, no binding/fettering (an-ādāna [act. ā-√dā]):
That is the island, with nothing on the farther side of it.
That's nibbāna, I tell you,
the total ending of decay (√ jṝ), and who has to die (Sk. martya).
Akiñcanaṃ anādānaṃ,
etaṃ dīpaṃ anāparaṃ;
Nibbānaṃ iti naṃ brūmi,
jarāmac­cu­parik­kha­yaṃ.
Snp 5.10

Is nibbāna the "knowledge beyond the breath", that would correspond to the ajo?
Sounds like it is.
(Nirvāna = nis [beyond] √vā [blow] na [knowledge] - beyond assāsapassāsā (the first/birth and last/death saṅkhārā, in the saṅkhārā nidana).

As the sutta above says, you can also notice that "akiñcanaṃ" corresponds to the eighth attainment (higher āyatana).
That is to say, the field of experience of nothingness (ākiñcaññāyatana) - that is to say, more properly, the field of experience of craving for nothing more.
Then, transcending that, one enters the field of neither aquiescence (viz. with these craved experiences), nor with the non-acquiescence (meaning that,they still have acquiescence with what's beyond/nibbāna/ajo) (nevasaññānāsaññāyatana).

Jhāna is not some debilitating "absorption".
Jhāna is not the path to a higher and higher (mushroomy or junky) trip.
That nonsense would be the view of a phony bhikkhu/guru, eager to scoop up all the desperates of this world — keeping them for ever in crass ignorance.
Jhāna is the path to reason, and to the great energy of the clear faculties - void of any kind of (debilitating wordly) pain or pleasures.

Jhāna is also the path to the end of the acquiescence (sañña) for the higher āyatanani.
A person doing jhāna, is one that transcends (samatikkamma,) each āyatana.
In the 5th higher āyatana, one starts to experience without the organs of senses - that is to say with a free unpolluted citta.
Then transcends towards the āyatana of non-internal (anto = antaḥ = antar) space - that is to say, a space that doesn't deflect/bend (añc,) towards the internal.
Note: What does that mean?
In the Chandogya Upanishad, it is said: "Verily, what is called Akasa (space) is the revealer of nāmarūpa".
Therefore, in the 6th ayatana, one "sees" with a liberated citta, from the nāmarūpa nidana point of view. The nāmarūpa that has descended in saḷāyatana nidāna, is not there any longer. The nāmarūpa that dealt with the field of experience of the senses, is no longer operative.

Same thing for ayatana #7th. One transcends towards the viññāṇa nidāna, that is the external (non-internal - ananto) viññāṇa. That is to say, towards an aniddassana (non manifested), non-bending (anañca) towards the nāmarūpa nidāna any longer.
So on and so forth until the cessation of experiences (vedanā), and cessation of acquiescences (sañña) towards those experiences - and this leads to the break on through to the other shore (nibbāna).
"We should have met Jim Morisson; we should have met. I would have explained.
https://rentry.co/m3inp

Jhāna is the journey towards the other shore that is nibbāna.


------------

Then there is vayu:
Vaya (vayas [AV.],) is just the mental and bodily (nāmakāyā) energy.
It is just what we simply call "losing our life", in the Western world.

This is well explained in Snp 5.6 or 7 (Upasī­vamāṇa­vapuc­chā):

Upasīva:
One free from passion
for all sensuality
relying on nothingness, letting go of all else,
intent on the highest freedom which still has acquiescence.
Does he stay there free of performing (lit. one who goes free of sacrificing) ?

The Buddha:
One free from passion
for all sensuality
relying on nothingness, letting go of all else,
intent on the highest freedom which still has acquiescence.
He stays there free of performing - (aka "having done, what had to be done").
(NOTE: This is nibbāna when one is still alive (having vayu)

Upasīva:
If, All-seeing Eye, he stays in this circumstance (tattha/tatra),
free of performing (anānuyāyī) for a multitude of rainy seasons,
[Note: I suppose this is a nice way to say that he has died, ]
right there,
would he be perhaps tranquilized (cooled) & released?
Would his consciousness be like that?

The Buddha:
As a flame overthrown by the force of the wind
goes to an end
that cannot be named,
so the sage freed from nāma and khāya (a.k.a. vaya),
goes to an end
that cannot be classified.
(NOTE: This is nibbāna, when there is no vayu any longer).


______

To your questions, auto:
Do Buddhas have no lifespan, which at some point ends; so that mean no rebirth - or Buddhas are beings that know the Way to extend lifespan; hence know the deathless element?

You wrote unborn (ajo) do you mean vayu?
I would answer that Tathāgatas (the ones who have thus gone), that are free of vayu (viz. dead - that have given up their last and ultimate assāsapassāsā saṅkhārā) — will not come back (no rebirth) - and have definitly reached nibbāna (the unborn with no rebirth) — having known obviously, the deathless ("godly") state in their life.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).

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Sam Vara
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:27 pm

Let's start with this extract:
“There is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned,” - (atthi, bhikkhave, ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ) - If, monks there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, you could not know an escape here from the born, become, made, and conditioned. But because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, therefore you do know an escape from the born, become, made, and conditioned.”
(Ud 8.3)
This is the ajo [a √jan] (the "unproducing", the "unmaking", the "uncreating - as per Vedic creed).
Ajo? In Pali, that means "billy goat".

No butts, now!

ToVincent
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by ToVincent »

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:16 pm
ToVincent wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:27 pm

Let's start with this extract:
“There is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned,” - (atthi, bhikkhave, ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ) -
Ajo? In Pali, that means "billy goat".

No butts, now!

Well, call it ajāta if you'd prefer.
Ajo is the Sanskrit equivalent, (as in RV. 1.67.5, or RV. 8.41.10).
But the Sanskrit also uses ajāta, (as in RV. 5.15.2).

A "he-goat" is aja in Sanskrit - and ajā a "she-goat".

And I don't smoke.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).

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Sam Vara
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:03 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:16 pm
ToVincent wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:27 pm

Let's start with this extract:
Ajo? In Pali, that means "billy goat".

No butts, now!

Well, call it ajāta if you'd prefer.
Ajo is the Sanskrit equivalent, (as in RV. 1.67.5, or RV. 8.41.10).
But the Sanskrit also uses ajāta, (as in RV. 5.15.2).

A "he-goat" is aja in Sanskrit - and ajā a "she-goat".

And I don't smoke.
.
.
Why are we bothering with Sanskrit?

And have you seen this?
Aja (/ˈeɪʒə/, pronounced like Asia) is the sixth studio album by the American jazz rock band Steely Dan. It was released in September 1977 by ABC Records.

ToVincent
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by ToVincent »

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:02 pm
Why are we bothering with Sanskrit?

And have you seen this?
Aja (/ˈeɪʒə/, pronounced like Asia) is the sixth studio album by the American jazz rock band Steely Dan. It was released in September 1977 by ABC Records.
Why these disparaging remarks?

A pundit in grammar on this (and an other highly praised Pali) forum recommended this book, by an expert on Pali roots, a while ago (https://archive.org/stream/ThePaliRoots ... 3/mode/2up), in which it is said:
"... since we know from comparative study of the two languages, that the majority of the Pali words are derived from Sanskrit".

Is it that using the Sanskrit roots, and looking for their derived historical meaning in the literature of the time - to have a better idea of what the Pali really meant at the time of Buddha - a problem?
Isn't it stupid to see words in the Tipitaka, that have meanings that were used hundreds or thousands years later, in totally different contexts?
The Pali Text Society (PTS) is full of them — and translators, who most of the time plagarize on the first translations relying on the PTS, carry on those dubious meanings from version to version; from rendering to rendering; from translator to translator.
The PTS is a great resource for Sanskrit roots. And it should be used for that purpose.

Isn't it normal to want to grasp and figure out a better, if not a right meaning - lexicographically, historically, and contextually?
What would prevent one to do that?

For what reason, should one keep people in the crass ignorance of a nonsensical meaning?
Who would find an interest in doing that? — tell me!

--------

Why these derogatory short comments?

What bothers you, in all I said?

Isn't Buddhism also, about preventing rebirth?
Aren't ajo or ajāta coming from the root √ jan ?
Doesn't this root mean "to be born"?

What's the problem?
:focus:
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).

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Sam Vara
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:28 am

What's the problem?
:focus:
.
.
No problem - just drawing attention to your tendency to advert to the Sanskrit even when presented with the Buddha's actual words in Pali. You don't actually seem to do anything with the root; it's not discussed here.

auto
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by auto »

Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality wrote: Worldy men who discover the original cavity of spirit are very rare indeed. It is under heaven(the top of the head),
above the earth(the lower abdomen), west of the sun(the left eye) and east of the moon(the right eye).
Behind the mysterious gate(hsuan kuan) and before the spirit of the valley(ku shen) is true natrue (chen hsin)
which is the source of true breath(chen shi). Although this true breath is linked with postnatal(ordinary) breathing,
the latter coming in-and-out thorugh mouth and nostrils, cannot reach the original cavity of spirit
to return to the source.
The immortal breath that comes from inner(vital) fourfold breathing and not through the nose and mouth,
can then return to the source.
In your guest for immortal breath, you should regulate postnatal(ordinary) breathing in order to find its source.
This immortal breath is hidden in the original cavity of spirit and is genial and will not scatter away when
postnatal(ordinary) breathing is well regulated.
Hence my master Liao Jen said: When vitality return to the original ocean(its source) life becomes boundless.

Q: Will you please give give me exact position of the original cavity of spirit?

It is (in the center of the brain behind) the spot between the eyes. Lao Tsu called it "the gateway to heaven and earth"
;hence he urged people to concentrate on the center in order to realize the oneness(of all things).
In this center is a pearl of the size of a grain of rice, which is between the heaven and earth in the human body(i.e the microcosm).
;it is the cavity of prenatal vitality.
To know where it lies is not enough, for it does not include the wonderous light of (essential) nature which is symbolised by a circle which Confucious called virtuous perfection(jen;
the Book of Change calls it the ultimateless(wu chi),
the Buddha perfect knowledge(yuan ming)
and the Taoists the elixir of immortality or spiritual light; which all point to the prenatal One True Vitality.
He who knows this cavity can prepare the elixir of immortality. Hence it is said: 'When the One is attained, all problems are solved'.
The unborn(nibbana), i think, is in other words prenatal.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto
The unborn(nibbana), i think, is in other words prenatal.
What does that mean?
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

auto
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:05 pm
auto
The unborn(nibbana), i think, is in other words prenatal.
What does that mean?
did you read the quote?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:05 pm
auto
The unborn(nibbana), i think, is in other words prenatal.
What does that mean?
did you read the quote?
Yes and I'm asking you to explain it.
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

auto
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:12 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:05 pm
auto



What does that mean?
did you read the quote?
Yes and I'm asking you to explain it.
It seems that the choice of terms follows commonsense.
Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality wrote: In the text, 'prenatal' denotes the positive or spiritual nature originally existing before birth and 'postnatal' means its negative or corrupt counterpart
which follows the ordinary way of material life after birth, the former being real and permanent whereas the latter is illusory and transient.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:16 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:12 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:10 pm

did you read the quote?
Yes and I'm asking you to explain it.
It seems that the choice of terms follows commonsense.
Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality wrote: In the text, 'prenatal' denotes the positive or spiritual nature originally existing before birth and 'postnatal' means its negative or corrupt counterpart
which follows the ordinary way of material life after birth, the former being real and permanent whereas the latter is illusory and transient.
So just a long winded way of saying that Nibbana is permanent and without beginning. The deeper question is if that Taoist text is talking about the same thing as the Buddha?
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

auto
Posts: 1715
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:19 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:16 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:12 pm


Yes and I'm asking you to explain it.
It seems that the choice of terms follows commonsense.
Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality wrote: In the text, 'prenatal' denotes the positive or spiritual nature originally existing before birth and 'postnatal' means its negative or corrupt counterpart
which follows the ordinary way of material life after birth, the former being real and permanent whereas the latter is illusory and transient.
So just a long winded way of saying that Nibbana is permanent and without beginning. The deeper question is if that Taoist text is talking about the same thing as the Buddha?
I am just guessing that the prenatal is nibbana. It is Taoist Alchemy, other sects can use terms like chakras, channels which have names and locations, the alchemy takes place in same places.
Translator says Taoist Yoga equivalent is Indian Yoga. And it is.

Also some terms are different in english translations(becae they think it is too much confusion if to use original terms lead and mercury.. which i think is not..), lead and mercury =vitality and spirit. So here you can assume connection with breath mediation where lead is heavy(sinking) and mercury is light(upward going)..

ToVincent
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Re: Ajo, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by ToVincent »

auto wrote:.

Originally, I did not open this thread in "connection to other paths".
So, if you want to talk about "Taoist yoga", please feel free to open another thread.
Thank you.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).

ToVincent
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Ajāta, Amatta, Nibbāna & Vaya

Post by ToVincent »

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:15 pm
ToVincent wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:28 am
What's the problem?
No problem - just drawing attention to your tendency to advert to the Sanskrit even when presented with the Buddha's actual words in Pali. You don't actually seem to do anything with the root; it's not discussed here.
What do you mean by: "tendency to advert to the Sanskrit, even when presented with the Buddha's actual words in Pali."

What actual word: Ajo as a he-goat in an obscure dictionary:
https://palidictionary.appspot.com/browse/a/ajo

Or Aja as a he-goat, in more serious ones:
https://palidictionary.appspot.com/browse/a/aja

You might bedevil some people with that ludicrous red herring about that he-goat vs unborn. But you're not going to perplex everyone.

The point in the OP, is that there is an unborn both in the suttas and in the Veda.

------

Is my reputation definitely tarnished because I used ajo (the Sanskrit term), instead of ajāta (the Sankrit & Pali term) — knowing that ajo & ajāta means the same thing in Sanskrit.

Ajo (Sk.) = Ajāta (Sk.) = Ajāta (Pali).
Coming from the root √jan [var. jā] — as in janati (see jāti).

We are not even sure that Buddha spoke Pali.

Are people going to run all over yelling:
"O, my god ! - ToVincent used the wrong Sanskrit word, to described the unborn (unproduced) — He used Sanskrit, instead of Pali".
Are they?

Change ajo with ajāta in the title if you feel an extreme urge to do it - it won't change a thing, as far as the meaning is concerned.


AND I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS THREAD HAS BEEN TAKEN TO "CONNECTION TO OTHER PATHS"
?!?!?
Explain point by point, please.
Thank you.

In the meantime, let's go back to the OP.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=572826#p572826
.
.
Last edited by ToVincent on Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).

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